PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

It's important to get the word out about the ongoing fraud as much as possible.

Generating awareness is necessary so that people take the time to really analyze prospective purchases the best they can...and to try to not get cheated.

Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a company that could authenticate a card if it has been altered or not.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a company that could authenticate a card if it has been altered or not.

It would be great if there was a company or non-profit dedicated to the collectors best authentication interests. I don't think there is a more corrupt hobby on the planet. There are more pre-war 8, 9, 10 grade cards in existence today than 1980 and collectors are being told by PSA's man with a grin ear to ear that it's a good thing to buy the highest quality you can afford and spend as much as you can!

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

It's important to get the word out about the ongoing fraud as much as possible.

Generating awareness is necessary so that people take the time to really analyze prospective purchases the best they can...and to try to not get cheated.

The fraud started with 00000001 being graded NM-MT 8 by PSA and money has talked to them since!

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a company that could authenticate a card if it has been altered or not.

I really don’t think any grading company can detect alterations if performed by a sufficiently skilled card doctor. It seems fair to say plenty of people already know this, including the grading companies.

As I said before, there MUST be a “white hat” card altering group that regularly tests card graders to see what they can catch.

These white hats should continually document and post their results and mark their altered cards after receiving them back from the grading companies.

The “good” grading companies make submitters sign/say they’re not submitting graded cards. But there MUST be an exception made for this legitimate purpose.

Edit: Think of this group functioning like Consumer Reports does to protect buyers.

[corndog]

Lots of freshly graded high-end vintage in the newest PWCC auction.

PSA and SGC.

Lots of sharp corners too.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Nvm..

[superdan49]

Pip, to be clear, are you saying you have knowledge that Scottie Foreman is the submitter of that trimmed Gehrig to SGC or are you painting this as a hunch?

Excellent work by Bruins finding this, BTW.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Pip, to be clear, are you saying you have knowledge that Scottie Foreman is the submitter of that trimmed Gehrig to SGC or are you painting this as a hunch?

Excellent work by Bruins finding this, BTW.

The anonymous email "Live From Santa Ana" referenced a person by the name of Scottie Foreman. This was one of the many errors/inaccuracies made in the email. Dave Forman (not Foreman), who owns SGC, has a brother whose name is Stevie. Dunno how someone who knows so much does not know how to spell Dave's last name and does not know who Dave's brother is.

Anyway, carry on with the Gehrig. Bruins did a superb job uncovering that one. I know he did a good deal of digging to track down this match.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

A complete lie. They cannot stop defrauding customers. Even while under FBI investigation. I wonder if Lichtman is having second thoughts about defending them.

Why would he? He knew very well who he chose to represent. He had no illusions.

[pip]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Why would he? He knew very well who he chose to represent. He had no illusions.

Well, he didn't know quite everything.

[corndog]

Moser purchase/alteration.
After trimming it was sold thru Mile High Card Company instead of PWCC.

PSA Cert #21680145

1952 Berk Ross Willie Mays #39

Value gain of $599.11

This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including TFJ's Willie Mays Master Set.

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller PWCC as a PSA 7 for $430.00 on June 03, 2013.
PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/493444

Same card was sold by Mile High Card Company as a PSA 8 for $1,029.11 on August 15, 2014.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...39/69482/PSA/8

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed left and right edges.

[Pink Pussycat]

Professional grading is laughable.

The "7" is so much nicer. Idiots are paying just for a number assigned by a person who knows nothing. Sad.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

Professional grading is laughable.



The "7" is so much nicer. Idiots are paying just for a number assigned by a person who knows nothing. Sad.

Ironic that grading is leading to the destruction of so many once-great cards.

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Ironic that grading is leading to the destruction of so many once-great cards.

Yeah, they defaced a great card for a bump of one grade. And the "Sheeple" responded by paying 2 1/2 times the card's original worth (just as the criminals were counting on).

Makes you wonder if and when they'll ever wise up to the scam.

[corndog]

*** I am posting this card based on who the identity of the initial buyer (Triplesssinc - known card doctors), and the enormous price gain due to a two grade jump by PSA. I will also post this in the catch-all Mantle thread. Thanks again to 312 for all of his hard work putting together the puzzle pieces that make up these threads.

PSA Cert #26946901

1965 Topps Joe Namath #122

Value gain of $252,000.00

This card was purchased by Ebay ID Triplesssinc from Ebay seller auctionsbydesign as a PSA 7 for $12,000.00 on June 11, 2016.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...=&limit=999999



Same card was sold by Heritage Auctions as a PSA 9 for $264,000.00 on February 24, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...22/97394/PSA/9



Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Due to the blurring of the first image, I cannot confirm anything other than it being the same card as the PSA 9. There are hundreds of hickies (print spots) in the solid peach colored background on the back and every one of them that you can see match up. There are also darker smudges or print flaws along the borders that match. In the front images I have added green boxes which identify the true left border. Most of the edge of the left border is visually misleading due to the card edge butting up against the plastic inner edge.









Close-ups of the hundreds of print flaws (hickies).

[corndog]

Yet another Moser purchase/alteration.
After trimming it was sold thru Goodwin Auctions instead of PWCC.

PSA Cert #15277255

1948 Leaf Cliff Aberson #136

Value gain of $3,659.91

This cert is currently in a user's private set registry inventory.

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller www-jasonssportscards-com as a PSA 6 for $103.61 on March 23, 2008.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...rt/42333/PSA/6

Same card was sold by Goodwin and Company Auctions as a PSA 8 for $3,763.52 on February 13, 2009.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...rt/42333/PSA/8

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed bottom edge. No back image provided.

[jasonm2121]

Unreal on that Namath, insane stuff.

[ThoseBackPages]

Crazy times indeed!

[mjohnatgt]

I like how PSA labeled the Aberson two different variations as well.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I like how PSA labeled the Aberson two different variations as well.

I didn't even notice that.

Nice catch!

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I like how PSA labeled the Aberson two different variations as well.

Wow, PSA is missing everything!

[mjohnatgt]

Well, I checked because it may have made a difference in the final purchase price.
Full Sleeves: PSA 8 Pop 8, None Higher out of 163 supposedly graded
Short Sleeves: PSA8 Pop 5, 1 higher (8.5) out of 100 graded

This is actually the Short Sleeve variation, since the Full Sleeves looks like:


But then, they're awful at actually identifying the cards they're grading. Back when I used to submit to them, probably 5% of my order had mechanical errors. That's why I requested to Steve Sloan that they add the ability for submitters to check their labels before they left PSA.

[corndog]

Yet another Moser purchase/alteration.
After trimming it was sold thru Goodwin Auctions instead of PWCC.

PSA Cert #15277248

1951 Bowman Jerry Coleman #49

Value gain of $477.78

This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including The Hill Collection.

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller just_collect as a PSA 7 for $31.00 on February 10, 2008.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999

Same card was sold by Goodwin and Company Auctions as a PSA 9 for $508.78 on July 17, 2009.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...49/69928/PSA/9

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed top edge. No back image provided. I used the imperfections in the bottom edge along with surface flaws on the bottom border for matching.

[corndog]

Another Moser purchase/alteration.


PSA Cert #15277268

1954 Bowman Don Larsen #101

Value gain of $74.07

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller roomn8 as a GGC 7 for $51.00 on November 19, 2007.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...1/67931/SGC/84

Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 8 for $125.07 on April 05, 2011.
PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/78155

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed left and right edges and stains removed.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

If I look at the hobby as a whole, I see an entire collective of people that WANT third party grading to work. Right or wrong, they love the liquidity it gives their cards, the measurability it gives their cards, the vindication it gives them, the categorization, the competition, the complete lack of justification they have to give. This group has been operating with a healthy amount of denial for the past decade, at least.

In the vintage/prewar environment, EVERYONE knew that trimmed/altered cards were getting past graders. You'd be a fool to think otherwise. But people thought it was on a much smaller scale than this has all shown. It was easy for people to say to themselves, "yeah, but it doesn't effect me," even if it did effect them. Seasoned collectors would openly admit that they "probably have an altered card or two in their collection." But if they couldn't find it, what were they going to do? It was considered the price of admission. You couldn't have all the benefits of grading without having a certain amount of screw ups. On the off-chance that you were able to catch one, you submitted it to PSA and their guarantee covered it. Everyone played under these rules and only a small handful of people knew how pervasive it really was.

Those people could tell you "hey, it's a lot worse than this. You have no idea how many trimmed cards are out there. There are large-scale dealers putting tons of bad material out into the hobby." But without proof, and without proof those people couldn't just name names, it stayed in that ethereal place in the back of everyone's mind. It wasn't concrete. You couldn't shove it anyone face. This was part of the denial that everyone was operating under.

They weren't in denial simply because they hadn't been shown the facts. They were in denial because the hobby was so much better and so much more enjoyable when third party grading worked. So what has changed? We've seen hundreds, if not thousands of cards get outed plain as day. We've seen lists of many, many thousands of other cards that are, at best, highly suspect. The FBI has gotten involved. It's been written about in many major mainstream news outlets. Whoever was going to find out about it probably has. Are TPGing submissions down? Are TPGed prices down? Barely a blip.

Can we fault the lack of evidence? Hell no! BODA has absolutely crushed it. I'm continuously in awe of their investigative skills and for the most part they've done all of this without a sliver of judgment. They show up, drop damning evidence, and leave it for the shock and admonition to rightfully follow. And they're not close to be done. And I'm not just talking about PSA/PWCC. So what, then, is the problem?

The problem is that people compartmentalize. In the history of people, people have never given up something they love because someone told them "some of that is completely toxic." There WILL be a list. That list will consist of what has been outed here and the linked submissions. Anything that doesn't show up on that list will be 100% denial food. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's what's going to happen.

So what changes that? What is the tipping point? Obviously, on a long enough timeline, anything can happen. But if we're talking about the near future? There is no tipping point. A smoking gun? Even in that instance, we'll see what we see from every other corporation caught in a scandal -- heads roll, new leadership is implemented, and a reason for denial is put back in place. Business 101. That's all that people want -- an excuse for them to be in denial. That's how much most of the hobby loves third-party grading. Third-party grading will never go away and in order for PSA/SGC/BGS to be torn down you need replacements.

This is an extremely difficult, if not borderline impossible, market to get into. You need to be able to lose millions your first 5 years, at least. There's all sorts of "off" grading companies out there right now. Who here is buying them or putting any stock in their opinion? No one. We immediately assume they're a joke. How are you going to tackle PSA and their registry when SGC can barely hang on? They survive because they have a niche that they've carved out over many years. But they're at their ceiling. They can't have a registry. They're sorely inept. We're still waiting on their grand magnificence that they announced would be "coming soon" at the 2018 National. Beckett? I think we all know Beckett has their own grading frauds to work through right now.

I'm not saying all of this because it's what I want. I'm saying it because it's the hard truth and we need to keep it in mind while tackling the fraud that's going on right now. If you're operating under the premise that this is going to lead to PSA going out of business or even PSA losing their hold on the #1 spot, you're only going to be further disappointed and angered and life's too short to have all of that injected into your life over something like this.

I believe we should focus less on a tipping point and more on forcing their hand to improve the grading process and transparency. They're not going to say boo as long as their legal battles with PWCC are ongoing so let's not waste our breath on that. But once the FBI concludes and the dust settles, we should be able to put forward a concrete plan of action.

I know I've noticed in a few posts a hint of frustration from BODA. I can't even fathom what they're feeling after putting in countless hours toward this and not seeing major results yet. But I know for a fact that the people I've notified have gotten refunded so you guys are saving collectors thousands and thousands of dollars and getting bad cards out of their collection. It may not seem like much but that's a huge service that definitely don't get thanked for enough due to desired anonymity on the victims' part. So let me be the one to thank you. You guys ARE making a difference, even if you don't see it materially. Every victim I've spoken to has been nothing but grateful. That's all of YOUR good work. I'm simply the messenger and I make sure they know that.

Well, congrats to anyone that made it this far. Apologies for the bloviating. A bit like lighting a cigarette with a SCUD missile. I know a lot of this is going to met with dissent. I hope that most of you can see that this is not what I'm endorsing or condoning, just what I'm afraid we're staring down the barrel of. I would love to hear about other theories though. I certainly don't think I have a monopoly on the truth.

Arthur

Excellent post! This is spot on. A few people will be in trouble, some leadership changes are likely to occur, and a list of alerted cards will perpetuate, but if anyone thinks for a moment that PSA will be brought down by this... I guess I'm just not sure what world those people think they're living in.

The TPGs aren't just some small side service leeching off of the hobby. They ARE the hobby. They have completely transformed the entire industry. All valuations of every card any of us buy or sell, graded or ungraded, are subject to their opinions whether we like it or not. The vast majority of all slabbed cards are not altered. Hell, even the majority of PWCC cards are almost certainly unaltered. Grading services are critical to the hobby, and they're not going away anytime soon.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

Excellent post! This is spot on. A few people will be in trouble, some leadership changes are likely to occur, and a list of alerted cards will perpetuate, but if anyone thinks for a moment that PSA will be brought down by this... I guess I'm just not sure what world those people think they're living in.

The TPGs aren't just some small side service leeching off of the hobby. They ARE the hobby. They have completely transformed the entire industry. All valuations of every card any of us buy or sell, graded or ungraded, are subject to their opinions whether we like it or not. The vast majority of all slabbed cards are not altered. Hell, even the majority of PWCC cards are almost certainly unaltered. Grading services are critical to the hobby, and they're not going away anytime soon.

You've been in the hobby for what? A month and a half? And suddenly, you're the oracle of all industry knowledge? The bolded stuff above is nonsense. The collectors comprise the "hobby," not the grading services. And you have no idea how many altered cards are in TPG holders. Not. One. Clue.