Brent Huigens & PWCC Used pwcc_auctions ID to Buy Cards for Gary Moser to Trim/Alter

[jasonm2121]

Originally Posted by steadned36

Have you seen this trimmer?

Nothing wrong with the eyebrows, simply an act of conservation.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by steadned36

Have you seen this trimmer?

This is going on your record.

[steadned36]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

This is going on your record.

It should be my avatar.

What is my record lol?

[kyle121592]

I would love nothing more than to see a Southpark episode as a result of this mess!

[imb4]

Originally Posted by kyle121592

I would love nothing more than to see a Southpark episode as a result of this mess!

The whole school is freaked out by "The Trimmer", a mythical serial rapist run amock in the town. Meanwhile Kyle starts showing up to school in huge chains, iced out like a rapper. He tells Cartman that he's rich now that his dad learned about baseball card Conservation. Cartman starts by trimming the F off his test and replacing with an A+. His mom gives him all the snacks he wants. He takes it to excess and starts "conserving" everything valuable he can get his hands on, resulting ultimately in trimming something hilarious. "The Trimmer" turns out to be Nathan and Timmy making mechanical sounds while trimming cards in the forest. The rapist turns out to be the card grading company. Kyle's family has to give up the riches, Cartman learns that Conservation is #@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@.

[palmetto7]

I would think Mosers arrest is just around the corner......and then he squeals on everyone involved.

[chris19978]

Seems as PWCC was caught on many occasions and nothing has happened. Why does anyone think this will be different. The fact it took what 20 years before the guy who trimmed the Wagner card to admit it. Unless PWCC catalogs every card, they sell and keeps a record of the sales and what was paid to the person it could take years before we get a verdict. Apparently, all the talk of PSA being more stringent in grading might not be the case at all. It’s not just vintage being trimmed. I would think PSA can come up with names of who had what graded and if the same name pops up on cards suspected to be trimmed altered, I would be willing to bet it’s the same few graders as well who grade certain peoples submissions. I am thinking all parties are at some fault either turning the other way while certain graders grade the same people who they are payed well for missing something such as a 1/16 of an inch off a card. The fact is PSA can claim human error in its defense. Certain things should not be missed card size, corners, edges would be key I can see a surface flaw being missed if its minor. There is still the fact it’s what you’re willing to pay for the card not as much as the grade, I am still willing to bet there are more honest grades than these altered grades. Gem Mint grading company is garbage I remember years ago buy 2 SP Jeter's with the Pristine grades only to send them both in to BGS to get the altered tag. Why are people paying as much as they do for these now still? The only real way to keep this honest on grading is to take the human grading out of the picture and make some type of 3d scanner which takes an image of not only the cards length and width but its height where if a card is supposed to be a 1/16 of an inch but its 1/24 of an inch its altered. There should be 0 room for error especially on the newer cards. I have been trying to figure out a way to do the 3d scan for around a year just don't know how yet. I wouldn't mind some help with it, but you must figure PSA and BGS are probably already looking into something like this. The real testament would be if they’re willing to scan this cards and if found altered in their labels if they would pay back market value or what you paid for the card if it wasn't the grade labeled initially that's how they could put faith back into grading.

But I don't see this being a huge issue and for the most part it will be forgotten by most in 3 months max. The fact that altered Wagner is still selling for crazy money tells me most don't care as much if its altered but care for the grade. Either way I don’t see anyone minus the trimmer possibly being charged and accused of anything. PWCC might be honest for a while and not shill bid or allow shill bidding on their auctions. But people tend to forget and move on to the next thing at some point.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1285855

[armpit69]

I too am new here...i've been collecting since the mid 70's...strictly vintage since the early 90's...been across the pond at net54 for eons...came over here when this story started to break.

I've been anti TPG'er and anti PWCC for quite a while.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by chris19978

Seems as PWCC was caught on many occasions and nothing has happened. Why does anyone think this will be different. The fact it took what 20 years before the guy who trimmed the Wagner card to admit it. Unless PWCC catalogs every card, they sell and keeps a record of the sales and what was paid to the person it could take years before we get a verdict. Apparently, all the talk of PSA being more stringent in grading might not be the case at all. It’s not just vintage being trimmed. I would think PSA can come up with names of who had what graded and if the same name pops up on cards suspected to be trimmed altered, I would be willing to bet it’s the same few graders as well who grade certain peoples submissions. I am thinking all parties are at some fault either turning the other way while certain graders grade the same people who they are payed well for missing something such as a 1/16 of an inch off a card. The fact is PSA can claim human error in its defense. Certain things should not be missed card size, corners, edges would be key I can see a surface flaw being missed if its minor. There is still the fact it’s what you’re willing to pay for the card not as much as the grade, I am still willing to bet there are more honest grades than these altered grades. Gem Mint grading company is garbage I remember years ago buy 2 SP Jeter's with the Pristine grades only to send them both in to BGS to get the altered tag. Why are people paying as much as they do for these now still? The only real way to keep this honest on grading is to take the human grading out of the picture and make some type of 3d scanner which takes an image of not only the cards length and width but its height where if a card is supposed to be a 1/16 of an inch but its 1/24 of an inch its altered. There should be 0 room for error especially on the newer cards. I have been trying to figure out a way to do the 3d scan for around a year just don't know how yet. I wouldn't mind some help with it, but you must figure PSA and BGS are probably already looking into something like this. The real testament would be if they’re willing to scan this cards and if found altered in their labels if they would pay back market value or what you paid for the card if it wasn't the grade labeled initially that's how they could put faith back into grading.

But I don't see this being a huge issue and for the most part it will be forgotten by most in 3 months max. The fact that altered Wagner is still selling for crazy money tells me most don't care as much if its altered but care for the grade. Either way I don’t see anyone minus the trimmer possibly being charged and accused of anything. PWCC might be honest for a while and not shill bid or allow shill bidding on their auctions. But people tend to forget and move on to the next thing at some point.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1285855

You may be right that this will all blow over. But this time there is very overwhelming and public evidence. I think there will be consequences this time but back to business as usual eventually. Maybe not for Moser and PWCC, but for PSA and BGS.

[base set]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but trimming is not actually illegal - lying about it is. ?

[chuckerrrr]

Originally Posted by chris19978

Seems as PWCC was caught on many occasions and nothing has happened. Why does anyone think this will be different. The fact it took what 20 years before the guy who trimmed the Wagner card to admit it. Unless PWCC catalogs every card, they sell and keeps a record of the sales and what was paid to the person it could take years before we get a verdict. Apparently, all the talk of PSA being more stringent in grading might not be the case at all. It’s not just vintage being trimmed. I would think PSA can come up with names of who had what graded and if the same name pops up on cards suspected to be trimmed altered, I would be willing to bet it’s the same few graders as well who grade certain peoples submissions. I am thinking all parties are at some fault either turning the other way while certain graders grade the same people who they are payed well for missing something such as a 1/16 of an inch off a card. The fact is PSA can claim human error in its defense. Certain things should not be missed card size, corners, edges would be key I can see a surface flaw being missed if its minor. There is still the fact it’s what you’re willing to pay for the card not as much as the grade, I am still willing to bet there are more honest grades than these altered grades. Gem Mint grading company is garbage I remember years ago buy 2 SP Jeter's with the Pristine grades only to send them both in to BGS to get the altered tag. Why are people paying as much as they do for these now still? The only real way to keep this honest on grading is to take the human grading out of the picture and make some type of 3d scanner which takes an image of not only the cards length and width but its height where if a card is supposed to be a 1/16 of an inch but its 1/24 of an inch its altered. There should be 0 room for error especially on the newer cards. I have been trying to figure out a way to do the 3d scan for around a year just don't know how yet. I wouldn't mind some help with it, but you must figure PSA and BGS are probably already looking into something like this. The real testament would be if they’re willing to scan this cards and if found altered in their labels if they would pay back market value or what you paid for the card if it wasn't the grade labeled initially that's how they could put faith back into grading.



But I don't see this being a huge issue and for the most part it will be forgotten by most in 3 months max. The fact that altered Wagner is still selling for crazy money tells me most don't care as much if its altered but care for the grade. Either way I don’t see anyone minus the trimmer possibly being charged and accused of anything. PWCC might be honest for a while and not shill bid or allow shill bidding on their auctions. But people tend to forget and move on to the next thing at some point.





https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1285855

I honestly think there is enough evidence against PWCC this time that something will happen to them. Alot of people talk about the past. “Trimming has been going for a long time”. Yes it probably has but there has never been more money involved in the hobby....ever. The amount of fraud is also at an all time high. Its time. PWCC also has been involved in many things. Shilling, selling known trimmed cards and not disclosing, buying cards sending to known trimmer then getting graded afterwards then selling just to name a few. We have a lot of evidence of this. Then you add up money that was made from all this. Its major scale fraud.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chris19978]

Originally Posted by rcmb3220

You may be right that this will all blow over. But this time there is very overwhelming and public evidence. I think there will be consequences this time but back to business as usual eventually. Maybe not for Moser and PWCC, but for PSA and BGS.

That's where I disagree on the vintage items who is to say they don't have multiple copies of that card and this is just the first one there selling. If they were able to show the cards in question the OP would be wrong. Now for numbered cards this is different if it gets a grade in one place say the BGS 8.5 Pujols and the and regrade it to get a PSA 10 but you see part of the card is missing as the post I showed then you have a case but then it goes to who bought it at a BGS 8.5 and did they resell before the PSA 10 and who broke the slab and sent it in to be regraded trimmed. What you would need to know is who sent it in to PSA did he buy with the BGS 8.5 grade and if that's the case who was the grader. Vintage is much harder to figure out.

[chris19978]

Originally Posted by base set

Please correct me if I am wrong, but trimming is not actually illegal - lying about it is. ?

This is where I agree honestly if the grader gives it a grade, I am not sure you have to tell anyone if the card was altered. That's where the guy who trimmed the Wagner got caught up, because he bragged, If he had sold it and never said anything to anyone no one would know. You can look at it like this if I am at a yard sale and see a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle rookie and I ask him a price and he says $0.50 on one and $500.00 on another to find out the $500.00 was a fake and the $0.50 was real neither could I go to the one or the other go to me saying they owe me or I owe them money.
I will take the 1996 Leaf Preferred Steel Bronze Promo Derek Jeter I own the seller wasn't aware of how rare the card was till after I paid, and he shipped the card to me. I didn't have to inform him of anything but when he found out he sold me this rare item he tried to threaten me saying he was going to get a lawyer if I didn't give him x amount more as I didn't give him the information I knew. I am not obligated to tell him anything neither is the person who trimmed the cards. Now if he is foolish and brags about it such as the Wagner former card owner then he could be held liable but when you buy a graded card you are trusting the company to have given a fair and accurate grade. That's where PSA can use the human error maybe the guy was having a day where he missed flaws he might have caught all week but that day or it could be as I mentioned a select few graders that only grade certain peoples cards that overlook things to give them better grades as they send 1000 cards a month and you treat him nicer than someone like me who grades maybe 10 cards a year.

[base set]

Mostly true. But when you submit a trimmed card for grading, you are stating you have no knowledge of it being altered, breaking your basic ‘contract’ with the grading company. You can slice up or re-paint your own baseball cards however you like, but lying about that is the actual crime. When someone says “he went to prison for trimming”, it somewhat trivializes the whole thing, to outsiders, in my opinion.

[chris19978]

Originally Posted by chuckerrrr

I honestly think there is enough evidence against PWCC this time that something will happen to them. Alot of people talk about the past. “Trimming has been going for a long time”. Yes it probably has but there has never been more money involved in the hobby....ever. The amount of fraud is also at an all time high. Its time. PWCC also has been involved in many things. Shilling, selling known trimmed cards and not disclosing, buying cards sending to known trimmer then getting graded afterwards then selling just to name a few. We have a lot of evidence of this. Then you add up money that was made from all this. Its major scale fraud.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The evidence shown here was all vintage and that will be hard to prove especially if they can show they still have the cards the OP mentioned in a raw form. Now do I believe they have these no I agree I feel like they had them altered or maybe not so much PWCC but who was the buyer I still haven't seen enough evidence that PWCC bought under another name. How was this proven because I would think if there doing something wrong, they would cover their tracks such as a P.O. Box with an employee’s name. I believe 90% of their cards sold are by people who send them cards to be sold not the other way around where there selling their own cards. I am sure they could show this if it ever went to court. Did they sell altered cards yes on many occasions did PSA or BGS slab them with a grade yes that means the grader and card owner would be wrong before PWCC would be the ones who are wrong. Now if that means PWCC was the owner then they are a fault, but I really haven't seen enough evidence to say PWCC was willingly selling altered cards. I am not trying to defend them but if this were to go to court today with the evidence seen here they would not be charged I would refrain from accusing till the police get evidence to show they were buying lower graded cards and altering them and reselling to make a profit. I see people who are jumping the gun and accusing before all the evidence is found best thing to do if you believe there guilty is not bid on their items or cut your bids down to a lower price. I am just as upset I have some PSA 10 cards not bought from them but others which if I were to find out was altered I would be upset but unless PSA is willing to put who sent what card to be graded I can’t just accuse anyone for the altered card especially if it’s a cosigner who is selling cards to make a money for the card owner and himself. I am off to bed I will be waiting to see what people say but all I am doing is expressing my opinion and yes I don’t go on here much but I am very active on FCB and a big Derek Jeter 90’s collector I am just not trying to judge and say someone is guilty on a little bit of evidence. Last I looked I believe they are in America and there innocent till proven guilty by a court of law not some forum that has a few cards of the thousands they sell a month. I am confident you could probably do the same thing to almost every person who sell cards for other people in large quantities like this.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by chris19978

This is where I agree honestly if the grader gives it a grade, I am not sure you have to tell anyone if the card was altered. That's where the guy who trimmed the Wagner got caught up, because he bragged, If he had sold it and never said anything to anyone no one would know. You can look at it like this if I am at a yard sale and see a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle rookie and I ask him a price and he says $0.50 on one and $500.00 on another to find out the $500.00 was a fake and the $0.50 was real neither could I go to the one or the other go to me saying they owe me or I owe them money.
I will take the 1996 Leaf Preferred Steel Bronze Promo Derek Jeter I own the seller wasn't aware of how rare the card was till after I paid, and he shipped the card to me. I didn't have to inform him of anything but when he found out he sold me this rare item he tried to threaten me saying he was going to get a lawyer if I didn't give him x amount more as I didn't give him the information I knew. I am not obligated to tell him anything neither is the person who trimmed the cards. Now if he is foolish and brags about it such as the Wagner former card owner then he could be held liable but when you buy a graded card you are trusting the company to have given a fair and accurate grade. That's where PSA can use the human error maybe the guy was having a day where he missed flaws he might have caught all week but that day or it could be as I mentioned a select few graders that only grade certain peoples cards that overlook things to give them better grades as they send 1000 cards a month and you treat him nicer than someone like me who grades maybe 10 cards a year.

Salt of the earth...

[chris19978]

Originally Posted by base set

Mostly true. But when you submit a trimmed card for grading, you are stating you have no knowledge of it being altered, breaking your basic ‘contract’ with the grading company. You can slice up or re-paint your own baseball cards however you like, but lying about that is the actual crime. When someone says “he went to prison for trimming”, it somewhat trivializes the whole thing, to outsiders, in my opinion.

I don't know of any contract with a grading company no matter if you trimmed a card and sent it in for grading you are still charged for that grade or non-grade. As someone mentioned before if I get a card that is a PSA 8 but I notice something on the surface break it out the case and clean the surface and regrade and get a PSA 9 I have alerted the card that could be considered the same. Yes, I went on two different extremes, but it can be considered altered by someone's point of view. Shaving a fraction of a card to clean a corner is morally wrong but that's where the graders need to be more stringent to me. If the dimensions are not exact it should not grade at all. But each company has that allowable limit to be graded, with that being the case who is really at fault?

[callers]

They should still grade cards that don't meet minimum size requirements but it should be noted on the label. Those cards should and will be a huge discount in price to a standard graded card because they will most likely be altered. If they do this they will need to be very strict on size requirements.

Problem solved!

[jmeryllman]

Originally Posted by base set

Please correct me if I am wrong, but trimming is not actually illegal - lying about it is. ?

You can deface, alter, trim your card own card all you want. When you start trimming or altering to get money from unsuspecting people, that is fraud. If you use the postal system to transport the fraudulent items, that is mail fraud. If the money you gained in the fraud goes thru a legit service like Paypal and come out clean, that is money laundering. If multiple entities are aware of this , it is conspiracy. If you start deleting, hiding, lying about it , then it is obstruction.

[dfenno]

Sports memorabilia firm investigating altered trading cards

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/2...ing-cards.html

New article

[brendanb438]

Originally Posted by dfenno

Sports memorabilia firm investigating altered trading cards

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/2...ing-cards.html

New article

You did get from the article that said firm is PSA right?

This isn't anything new that wasn't already being discussed yesterday on these boards.

[dfenno]

Originally Posted by brendanb438

You did get from the article that said firm is PSA right?

This isn't anything new that wasn't already being discussed yesterday on these boards.

Sure did, but thanks for checking. . I didn’t write the headline - the Oregonian did.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by chris19978

The evidence shown here was all vintage and that will be hard to prove especially if they can show they still have the cards the OP mentioned in a raw form. Now do I believe they have these no I agree I feel like they had them altered or maybe not so much PWCC but who was the buyer I still haven't seen enough evidence that PWCC bought under another name. How was this proven because I would think if there doing something wrong, they would cover their tracks such as a P.O. Box with an employee’s name. I believe 90% of their cards sold are by people who send them cards to be sold not the other way around where there selling their own cards. I am sure they could show this if it ever went to court. Did they sell altered cards yes on many occasions did PSA or BGS slab them with a grade yes that means the grader and card owner would be wrong before PWCC would be the ones who are wrong. Now if that means PWCC was the owner then they are a fault, but I really haven't seen enough evidence to say PWCC was willingly selling altered cards. I am not trying to defend them but if this were to go to court today with the evidence seen here they would not be charged I would refrain from accusing till the police get evidence to show they were buying lower graded cards and altering them and reselling to make a profit. I see people who are jumping the gun and accusing before all the evidence is found best thing to do if you believe there guilty is not bid on their items or cut your bids down to a lower price. I am just as upset I have some PSA 10 cards not bought from them but others which if I were to find out was altered I would be upset but unless PSA is willing to put who sent what card to be graded I can’t just accuse anyone for the altered card especially if it’s a cosigner who is selling cards to make a money for the card owner and himself. I am off to bed I will be waiting to see what people say but all I am doing is expressing my opinion and yes I don’t go on here much but I am very active on FCB and a big Derek Jeter 90’s collector I am just not trying to judge and say someone is guilty on a little bit of evidence. Last I looked I believe they are in America and there innocent till proven guilty by a court of law not some forum that has a few cards of the thousands they sell a month. I am confident you could probably do the same thing to almost every person who sell cards for other people in large quantities like this.

You didn't read the thread, did you?

PWCC was buying cards with its own account on ebay.

Some of these cards then resurfaced after trimming and/or other alteration for sale in PWCC auctions.

Photographic evidence is clear as to these being the exact card, due to paper fibers and other printing issues which will be unique to a particular vintage card.

And the next time you post here, for the love of God, try to use punctuation, recognizable sentence structure, and paragraphs, so you are not writing like a fourth grader strung out on Red Bull.

[smalltown]

Originally Posted by dfenno

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/2...ing-cards.html

New article

Get to commenting and sharing. The more we do. The longer it says in the spotlight and the more potential for deeper articles.

[TomRacer]

Originally Posted by dfenno

Sports memorabilia firm investigating altered trading cards

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/2...ing-cards.html

New article

The writer of the article, Mike Rogoway, has a great grasp of the issues for a newspaper reporter and I hope he follows up on his questions with PWCC and PSA.

I agree with smalltown, share this article. Page views and links from a variety of places will encourage Mike and his employer to follow through with further investigation.