PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[corndog]

Originally Posted by superdan49

If you put the cert number, 25226183, of the "before" 1960 Topps Bob Gibson PSA 8 seen in Vintage Card Curator's video in the post above, it has been removed: https://www.psacard.com/cert/25226183

However the "after" cert number of the trimmed PSA 9, cert number 27220811, remains active. This was a Johnny Adams Jr. card.

At first I thought Johnny Adams is cooperating with authorities and PSA is removing bad certs forwarded to them by the authorities. Now I'm not sure what is going on.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Interesting. Are these cards you (BODA) have previously identified as altered or is PSA actually attempting to remove items before evidence is shown?

The altered cards are still up.
Most of the other cards in the submission run are now hidden by that message.

[superdan49]

My question is why Johnny Adams Jr, above all others?

[pip]

Originally Posted by superdan49

My question is why Johnny Adams Jr, above all others?

I have a feeling we're going to see it elsewhere too, to the extent that it doesn't adversely affect the Set Registry.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

I have a feeling we're going to see it elsewhere too, to the extent that it doesn't adversely affect the Set Registry.

Random certs, it's the wave of the future, one service already has gone there.

[KhalDrogo]

I don't see the motive behind removing the certification from slabs if the slabs are still in circulation. These cards have likely been sold and resold by now. So if you unfortunately own that card, you're just out of luck now? Because you hold some decertified garbage that someone else altered?

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Random certs, it's the wave of the future, one service already has gone there.

Random certs protect us from Russian hackers and Chinese forgers. I can only assume those are the reasons SGC made that switch over.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I don't see the motive behind removing the certification from slabs if the slabs are still in circulation. These cards have likely been sold and resold by now. So if you unfortunately own that card, you're just out of luck now? Because you hold some decertified garbage that someone else altered?

Exactly. It forces you to return to the seller/submitter to get a refund. Perhaps this is PSA'S method of completely washing their hands of the situation.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pip

Exactly. It forces you to return to the seller/submitter to get a refund. Perhaps this is PSA'S method of completely washing their hands of the situation.

Pip you raise a good point. Perhaps it's the opposite of what I originally thought. Johnny Adams is refusing to buy back the bad cards and PSA is turning the screws on him to force him to comply.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pip

Exactly. It forces you to return to the seller/submitter to get a refund. Perhaps this is PSA'S method of completely washing their hands of the situation.

It doesn’t force you to do that.

If I owned a PSA slab, and it had that message when I looked up the cert #, I would email them an inquiry. If they admit the card has been found to be altered, then I’m submitting it back to PSA under their guarantee. Which they better be good on since they’ve already admitted it’s altered. If they don’t admit it’s altered, then why is the cert # deactivated?

[pspa123]

I thought they were removing certs ADJACENT to the outed cards. It seems to me the motive could be to prevent searching for additional altered cards unless I am missing it.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I thought they were removing certs ADJACENT to the outed cards. It seems to me the motive could be to prevent searching for additional altered cards unless I am missing it.

That's what I was thinking, assuming that's how the certifications are being discovered.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I thought they were removing certs ADJACENT to the outed cards. It seems to me the motive could be to prevent searching for additional altered cards unless I am missing it.

I found one "before" card they removed, see my post #6297.

If indeed they are removing certs to hamper research into altered cards, that would be the height of stupidity during the middle of an FBI investigation.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I thought they were removing certs ADJACENT to the outed cards. It seems to me the motive could be to prevent searching for additional altered cards unless I am missing it.

That’s a moronic tactic with the potential consequence of hundreds or thousands of decertified slab owners knocking at your door asking why the cert is no longer valid. Doesn’t make any sense.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

It doesn’t force you to do that.

If I owned a PSA slab, and it had that message when I looked up the cert #, I would email them an inquiry. If they admit the card has been found to be altered, then I’m submitting it back to PSA under their guarantee. Which they better be good on since they’ve already admitted it’s altered. If they don’t admit it’s altered, then why is the cert # deactivated?

It does if you call or email PSA and they direct you to the original submitter for a refund.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That’s a moronic tactic with the potential consequence of hundreds or thousands of decertified slab owners knocking at your door asking why the cert is no longer valid. Doesn’t make any sense.

Well, it kind of does. Maybe they've only decertified cards that are currently NOT in the PSA Set Registry. If, in the future, someone tries to register one of the decertified cards, PSA tells them the card is potentially altered, and sends them to the submitter for a refund.

[pip]

I think some of you are underestimating how devious and disingenuous PSA is. Management will never, even under the pain of excruciating torture and death, admit that they did anything wrong or that there IS something wrong. It's always someone ELSE'S fault. Always.

[HarryLime]

I imagine it would be tough to unequivocally point the finger at the submitter if the card has changed hands a few times, even if it's in the same slab. Peter?

Arthur

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

Well, it kind of does. Maybe they've only decertified cards that are currently NOT in the PSA Set Registry. If, in the future, someone tries to register one of the decertified cards, PSA tells them the card is potentially altered, and sends them to the submitter for a refund.

I thought Sloan's blog post or whatever it was directed people to their immediate sellers, not to the original submitter.

Yes, here it is.

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request.

[Clark]

The decertified slabs were thrown in the garbage by the trimmers. The cards are in their new holders, which PSA guarantees.

With mounting evidence of alterations that is indisputable and with the millions of PSA certifications. They have no choice but to stand behind their service.

I believe they are pushing all their chips to the center of the table and letting the consumer decide.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Clark

The decertified slabs were thrown in the garbage by the trimmers. The cards are in their new holders, which PSA guarantees.

With mounting evidence of alterations that is indisputable and with the millions of PSA certifications. They have no choice but to stand behind their service.

I believe they are pushing all their chips to the center of the table and letting the consumer decide.

They're refusing requests on their guarantee and directing people to the person that sold them the card.

Arthur

[Clark]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

They're refusing requests on their guarantee and directing people to the person that sold them the card.

Arthur

It doesnt prevent a person from their rights under the submission contract.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I thought Sloan's blog post or whatever it was directed people to their immediate sellers, not to the original submitter.

Yes, here it is.

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request.

Correct. They aren’t disclosing who the submitter is. And they haven’t decertified runs of slabs up until now. Has the historical precedent not been to only decertify if the slab is in PSA’s hands?

I think there’s more to the story here. Because at face value, it looks like PSA is admitting that these cards were all altered. I don’t think they would do that. At least not in a manner like this.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Clark

It doesnt prevent a person from their rights under the submission contract.

LOL. Really? Call PSA and tell them that.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Clark

It doesnt prevent a person from their rights under the submission contract.

The contract between PSA and a submitter does not create rights in third parties.

Marketplace purchasers have rights under the guarantee, not the submission contract.