PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Correct. They aren’t disclosing who the submitter is. And they haven’t decertified runs of slabs up until now. Has the historical precedent not been to only decertify if the slab is in PSA’s hands?

I think there’s more to the story here. Because at face value, it looks like PSA is admitting that these cards were all altered. I don’t think they would do that. At least not in a manner like this.

I guess there's another possibility, mentioned by Clark. Perhaps the current owner is getting cards that are currently graded put in a new slab with a new serial number. Remember when Memory Lane did this a number of years ago with some cards (1933 Goudeys, I think) that they "resold" in some of their auctions?

[Clark]

Originally Posted by pspa123

The contract between PSA and a submitter does not create rights in third parties.

Isn't the intent to create a safe marketplace?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Clark

Isn't the intent to create a safe marketplace?

Yes, but that is a function of the guarantee.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Yes, but that is a function of the guarantee.

OK..I get your point. Is there a forum for a third party for redress?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Clark

OK..I get your point. Is there a forum for a third party for redress?

Not sure I follow you. People seeking redress under the guarantee would have to submit the card to PSA requesting a review.

[3124508 on COMC]

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...off-1941981033
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1884899

[3124508 on COMC]

Big gainer.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...tas-1930333860
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1884897

[Clark]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Not sure I follow you. People seeking redress under the guarantee would have to submit the card to PSA requesting a review.

Sorry. I am jumping around a bit. Give me a minute to gather some info.

[tconte]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Random certs, it's the wave of the future, one service already has gone there.

When they did that, I never bought another card in their holder and never will.
Those that know me, know I was one of the biggest proponents in the early
2000's. All my red man cards were graded by them.

Now, I would pass.

[corndog]

Cross posting this newly created thread here since certain people read this thread. It's also a catch-all for all trimming related threads.



47 year old Charles "Charlie" Barokas has been buying and selling for 20 years under his primary Ebay ID of manontherock.
He has lived on Mercer Island in the State of Washington (next to Seattle) for many years.



Ebay ID: manontherock (masked: e***o) - VCP masked ID: c***t
2nd Ebay ID: ??? - VCP masked ID: c***l
The c***l masked ID is tied to Barokas by being intermingled around c***t purchased cards when searching through his PSA submission cert runs.

Barokas sells cards through his Ebay account manontherock, consigned through probstein123 and also through online auction houses.
Research has shown that many of the cards that he has submitted for grading are resubmissions of purchased cards that have been removed
from their slabs with no discernable evidence of alteration. The majority of those resubs are bumped in grade and the profits when sold are tremendous.
All cards discovered have been graded by PSA.

One of the distinct differences encountered that separates him from other known card doctor submitters is the very quick turnaround times by PSA.
From 2015 until just a few months ago Barokas' usual time span from initial purchase, crackout, trim, PSA grading and sale through consignment
was 4 to 5 weeks. He wasted no time getting cards resold.

Over the years Charlie Barokas has been accused or suspected of trimming cards by collectors. There are inferences to this on the Net54 forum.
Below is a Net54 snip from 2006 where Charlie Barokas responds to one of the accusations.
The red box is profound in that he took his own advice.



____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Establishing that masked VCP ID c***t is linked to Barokas' manontherock Ebay ID:

The following card is an example of Charlie Barokas using his main Ebay account of manontherock to both purchase the card and sell the same card.
The card was purchased on 10/21/15, cracked out and regraded with a bump in grade, and then sold from his Ebay store in the short time span of only 25 days.
Most of the cards tracked through research have fast turnaround times as well. As with many of his cards, this card appears to be a resub only.
And like most of his resubs, it received a grade bump resulting in a substantial profit.

PSA Cert #24921976

1950 Bowman Walter Barnes #61 PSA 9

Value gain of $421.23

This card was purchased by masked VCP ID c***t (Charlie Barokas) from Ebay seller www.stevenovella.com as a PSA 8 for $78.77 on October 21, 2015.
VCP snip:



Same card was sold by Ebay seller manontherock (Charlie Barokas) as a PSA 9 for $500.00 on November 15, 2015.
VCP snip:



Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Card appears to be a crack and resubmit grade bump.





_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Trimmed cards:

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PSA Cert #42504278

PSA Set Registry: Vintage Corvette - 1951 Bowman

1951 Bowman Billy Cox #224

Value gain of $443.51

This card was purchased by masked VCP ID c***t (Charlie Barokas) from Ebay seller uncommons as a PSA 8 for $71.49 on December 17, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...24/69751/PSA/8

Same card was sold by probstein123 as a PSA 9 for $515.00 on April 04, 2019.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...24/69751/PSA/9

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed right and bottom edges.





______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PSA Cert #42111628

PSA Set Registry: none

1950 Bowman Tobin Rote #81 - Population 1 of 4 - none higher

Value gain of $1,974.00

This card was purchased by masked VCP ID c***t (Charlie Barokas) from Ebay seller teri781 as a PSA 6 for $35.00 on March 27, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...1/101252/PSA/6

Same card was sold by probstein123 as a PSA 9 for $2,009.00 on November 25, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...1/101252/PSA/9

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed top edge.





______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PSA Cert #26930264

PSA Set Registry: none

1952 Bowman Large Gene Ronzani #135

Value gain of $1,754.99

This card was purchased by masked VCP ID c***t (Charlie Barokas) from Ebay seller gregmorriscards as a PSA 7 for $645.01 on February 13, 2017.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...5/100778/PSA/7

Same card was sold by Heritage Auctions as a PSA 8 for $2,400.00 on May 12, 2017.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...5/100778/PSA/8

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed bottom edge.





______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PSA Cert #42111631

PSA Set Registry: none

1950 Bowman Dante Lavelli #78 - Population 1 of 7 - none higher

Value gain of $2,909.00

This card was purchased by masked VCP ID c***l (Charlie Barokas) from Ebay seller teri781 as a PSA 8 for $380.84 on April 25, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...8/154966/PSA/8

Same card was sold by probstein123 as a PSA 9 for $3,289.84 on November 25, 2018.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/f...8/154966/PSA/9

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed left edge.





______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[3124508 on COMC]

This card is a mess. Half edge trims on both left and right to eliminate diamond cut. Top edge trimmed too. Suspect bottom edge has been shaved as well.

https://siriussportsauctions.com/Lot...toryid=1247614
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1925990

[Clark]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Not sure I follow you. People seeking redress under the guarantee would have to submit the card to PSA requesting a review.

I was copying and pasting about the contract, then I realized I was getting away from my original post. Hopefully I can communicate my thoughts better.

-Card 1111 is certified PSA5
-At some point in its life it is doctored and is now a PSA9 with cert 2222
-An unsuspecting person buys it as a PSA9.
-Cert 2222 goes back to PSA for review by “someone”
-PSA reviews the card and in their “opinion” there is no evidence of trimming.

I believe there is no redress for “someone” because any rights that may or may not exist are heavily slanted in PSAs favour

-PSA knows this, decerts the original 1111 and stands by cert 2222 as their “opinion”.
-They push their chips to the center of the table and allow the market to decide if their "opinion" has value

[mjohnatgt]

You can then sue them in California and show that you were defrauded by showing the before and after pictures. Whether or not people are doing that or not, I am not sure.

All I know is the more they try to cover up their liability, the deeper I hope the FBI investigation goes into their methods.

[pip]

Cards like that 1959 Unitas will definitely draw the attention of the authorities. People have been prosecuted for committing single acts of fraud of that magnitude (nearly $18,000).

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:21227869

1948 Leaf #20 Hank Sauer PSA 5 to PSA 6
Alteration types: Trimming
Set Registry status: None

Sold on 12/13/2012 as a PSA 5 by eBay seller www.stevenovella.com to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $223.49
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 8/7/2013 as a PSA 6 for $345.00
Final price: $345.00
Value gain: $121.51


Another trimmed card from the '48 Leaf set from Gary Moser and first sold through PWCC. Both edges are trimmed, as boxed in green. Distinguishing print marks are circled in pink, confirming both images are the same card. A more expensive example of this 1948 Leaf Sauer card was found by Corndog back in Post #5678. A good general rule when buying PSA graded '48 Leaf cards (if you must) is to avoid ones that have the plastic interior sleeve. In my experience many of these are trimmed.

PSA 5: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...nt/42407/PSA/5
PSA 6: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/544611

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:21227869

1948 Leaf #20 Hank Sauer PSA 5 to PSA 6
Alteration types: Trimming
Set Registry status: None

Sold on 12/13/2012 as a PSA 5 by eBay seller www.stevenovella.com to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $223.49
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 8/7/2013 as a PSA 6 for $345.00
Final price: $345.00
Value gain: $121.51


Another trimmed card from the '48 Leaf set from Gary Moser and first sold through PWCC. Both edges are trimmed, as boxed in green. Distinguishing print marks are circled in pink, confirming both images are the same card. A more expensive example of this 1948 Leaf Sauer card was found by Corndog back in Post #5678. A good general rule when buying PSA graded '48 Leaf cards (if you must) is to avoid ones that have the plastic interior sleeve. In my experience many of these are trimmed.

PSA 5: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...nt/42407/PSA/5
PSA 6: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/544611

My gosh, those vertical borders are both soooooo narrow for a '48 Leaf. No way can that be within the tolerance for that set. All it takes is a quick glance to see that those vertical borders are trimmed.

So how on earth does that get past PSA? And how is this card granted a "6" with that obtrusive print line across his cap?

[3124508 on COMC]

Copied from Small Traditions thread due to PWCC sale.

https://milehighcardco.com/1914_Crac...-LOT52127.aspx
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1600267

[3124508 on COMC]

Lots of trimmed Jeter cards set to be sold by PWCC this month.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/2189200
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...rek-1970278339

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Lots of trimmed Jeter cards set to be sold by PWCC this month.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/2189200

I understand this is an opinion not shared by all, but emphasizing condition on cards numbered that low bothers me to begin with. As a result I don’t feel as bad for an ignorant buyer of this Jeter card...but I kind of feel guilty about not feeling guilty about it, LOL.

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

I understand this is an opinion not shared by all, but emphasizing condition on cards numbered that low bothers me to begin with. As a result I don’t feel as bad for an ignorant buyer of this Jeter card...but I kind of feel guilty about not feeling guilty about it, LOL.

That right edge has been reduced, not trimmed.

That card has zero business being in a slab at all.

[cking]

Originally Posted by HBMC

That right edge has been reduced, not trimmed.

That card has zero business being in a slab at all.

If Joe Orlando says its good...then its good.......the shepple will follow

[HarryLime]

I remember a few years ago ST was mostly modern. It was sort of known as the modern AH. Every auction they would have incredible Jeter stuff. It was as if they specialized in rare, high-grade Jeter cards. Thinking back on it now, there's got to be a staggering amount of bad Jeter stuff out there from this dbag.

Arthur

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by HBMC

That right edge has been reduced, not trimmed.

That card has zero business being in a slab at all.

Yeah, there is room to run inside that slab. Crazy.

[qdoggmets]

I believe we are seeing the wave of impact. The sheer volume of T206 cards in their auctions have been reduced to a slow trickle. This is the second auction in a row that they have under 100 T206 cards.

There is also a huge rebalancing of SGC cards to PSA in T206 land.

My guess is this is similar for other prewar card issues as well but I do not follow them

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by qdoggmets

I believe we are seeing the wave of impact. The sheer volume of T206 cards in their auctions have been reduced to a slow trickle. This is the second auction in a row that they have under 100 T206 cards.

There is also a huge rebalancing of SGC cards to PSA in T206 land.

My guess is this is similar for other prewar card issues as well but I do not follow them

BODA hasn't gotten to SGC yet. Be patient.

Arthur