2025 Baseball Hall of Fame

[here2havefun]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But how do you explain Mariano Rivera getting unanimously voted on in 2019?

Maybe the same voter who withheld their vote for Ichiro also withheld their vote for Jeter?

Why Rivera? Pro-MAGA?

The no-doubt best ever reliever, is my guess. Ichiro (and Jeter) are position players, so they can easily be compared directly to Mickey Mantle. Rivera vs Mantle is mentally a tough comparison to make, Rivera doesn't "feel" like a threat to Mantle.

[duwal]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Completely disagree.....he was a horse, but a just above average one.

Only one season with an ERA below 3.00, and the second worst ERA of any inductee ever.

The disparity between him and Felix Hernandez is stunning...86.8% vs 20.6%.

but you can't forget it was also a hitters era that he was in. Very few pitchers were getting under the 3.00 ERA mark in the A.L. Check out his main decade from 2003-2012 when he went from age 22 to 31, he finished in the top 10 in ERA 7 of the 10 seasons. He finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting in 5 of the 10 seasons, winning once. An all-star 6 of those seasons. He led the league multiple years in shutouts, multiple years in complete games

[Drew3000]

We need to induct Jesse Orosco. The best ability is availability and he pitched in the most games all time. HOF worthy imo

[razorsharp]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Completely disagree.....he was a horse, but a just above average one.

Only one season with an ERA below 3.00, and the second worst ERA of any inductee ever.

The disparity between him and Felix Hernandez is stunning...86.8% vs 20.6%.

Higher ERA because he always went the extra mile for his team while pitching. He emptied the gas every start saving the teams BP.

He was an absolute stud. What he did for the Brewers KNOWING all the money he could potentially lose (due to injury for overextending himself) and being a pending FA is why he has the respect of every single teammate he ever played with. He is probably one of the most universally beloved players ever by his peers.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by duwal

but you can't forget it was also a hitters era that he was in. Very few pitchers were getting under the 3.00 ERA mark in the A.L. Check out his main decade from 2003-2012 when he went from age 22 to 31, he finished in the top 10 in ERA 7 of the 10 seasons. He finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting in 5 of the 10 seasons, winning once. An all-star 6 of those seasons. He led the league multiple years in shutouts, multiple years in complete games

ERA+ of 116, its good, but not all time great territory. Its basically the same as Lester who was 117.

Verlander is 129, Kershaw 156, Scherzer 133, Halladay 131. Those are the best pitchers over CC's career. CC is more like the next tier, his longevity gets him in more than any dominance.

Grienke will probably get in too and if he doesn't I'm not sure the rationale.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by here2havefun

The no-doubt best ever reliever, is my guess. Ichiro (and Jeter) are position players, so they can easily be compared directly to Mickey Mantle. Rivera vs Mantle is mentally a tough comparison to make, Rivera doesn't "feel" like a threat to Mantle.

I wonder how long before the Japanese media finds out who didn't vote for him.

[fabiani12333]

Watching Billy Wagner's interview on MLB Network, you can tell getting in means more to him than most other guys -- he was pretty emotional.

It came down to the wire, but he finally got the call.

[razorsharp]

Originally Posted by JRX

ERA+ of 116, its good, but not all time great territory. Its basically the same as Lester who was 117.

Verlander is 129, Kershaw 156, Scherzer 133, Halladay 131. Those are the best pitchers over CC's career. CC is more like the next tier, his longevity gets him in more than any dominance.

Grienke will probably get in too and if he doesn't I'm not sure the rationale.

That longevity matters though. You can't just ignore it. There is incredible value in what he did for his team eating all those innings (while also producing the results he did).

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by here2havefun

The no-doubt best ever reliever, is my guess. Ichiro (and Jeter) are position players, so they can easily be compared directly to Mickey Mantle. Rivera vs Mantle is mentally a tough comparison to make, Rivera doesn't "feel" like a threat to Mantle.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Being a closer, Mo was in a unique category and the best in that category. It's easy to separate his case from other Hall of Famers.

[duwal]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But how do you explain Mariano Rivera getting unanimously voted on in 2019?

Maybe the same voter who withheld their vote for Ichiro also withheld their vote for Jeter?

Why Rivera? Pro-MAGA?

why would you think his potential political views would be a deciding factor over his being purely dominant over 15+ seasons?

8-1, 42 saves, 0.70 ERA in post-season
2-1, 11 saves, 0.99 ERA in 7 World Series
11 of 19 seasons with ERA under 2

[JRX]

Originally Posted by duwal

why would you think his potential political views would be a deciding factor over his being purely dominant over 15+ seasons?

8-1, 42 saves, 0.70 ERA in post-season
2-1, 11 saves, 0.99 ERA in 7 World Series
11 of 19 seasons with ERA under 2

Also right leaning political views tend to not help with an electorate that's predominantly left leaning.

[dherm360]

I saw some clown on MLB Network voted for Russell Martin and Brian McCann

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by duwal

why would you think his potential political views would be a deciding factor over his being purely dominant over 15+ seasons?

8-1, 42 saves, 0.70 ERA in post-season
2-1, 11 saves, 0.99 ERA in 7 World Series
11 of 19 seasons with ERA under 2

Originally Posted by JRX

Also right leaning political views tend to not help with an electorate that's predominantly left leaning.

Sorry -- I was being sarcastic. I was just throwing out a random theory.

I think being universally considered the best closer in MLB history probably allowed him to get unanimous support. He doesn't get grouped in with position players or starters.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by razorsharp

That longevity matters though. You can't just ignore it. There is incredible value in what he did for his team eating all those innings (while also producing the results he did).

Mark Buerhle threw over 3200 innings with an ERA+ of 117. Does he not get in because he got his outs via contact vs strikeouts?

[jdandns]

Originally Posted by duwal

but you can't forget it was also a hitters era that he was in. Very few pitchers were getting under the 3.00 ERA mark in the A.L. Check out his main decade from 2003-2012 when he went from age 22 to 31, he finished in the top 10 in ERA 7 of the 10 seasons. He finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting in 5 of the 10 seasons, winning once. An all-star 6 of those seasons. He led the league multiple years in shutouts, multiple years in complete games

20 of his 38 career complete games came in a 3 year span. The "Baines was a stat compiler" guys would point out how totally, completely mediocre he was over his last 7 seasons. Plus, his career postseason ERA is pretty close to Kershaw's, so not good. Clayton should also have to wait a year to get in, just for that.

I could see Sabathia getting in fairly soon, but 1st ballot is a stretch.
Clearly, the Yankee bounce got him in this quickly, but whatevs, another California kid makes good.

Congrats to all the new members.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by jdandns

20 of his 38 career complete games came in a 3 year span. The "Baines was a stat compiler" guys would point out how totally, completely mediocre he was over his last 7 seasons. Plus, his career postseason ERA is pretty close to Kershaw's, so not good. Clayton should also have to wait a year to get in, just for that.

I could see Sabathia getting in fairly soon, but 1st ballot is a stretch.
Clearly, the Yankee bounce got him in this quickly, but whatevs, another California kid makes good.

Congrats to all the new members.

I think it's more his post playing career. He's media savvy.

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[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by jdandns

20 of his 38 career complete games came in a 3 year span. The "Baines was a stat compiler" guys would point out how totally, completely mediocre he was over his last 7 seasons.

Ehh -- he was pretty solid in his age-35-37 seasons (2016-18): 3.76 ERA; 115 ERA+; 7.7 bWAR; 160 IP per-season average.

That's good enough to be a good number 3 starter.

He sucked in his age-32-34 seasons (2013-15): 4.81 ERA; 83 ERA+; 0.5 bWAR; 141 IP per-season average

He went into rehab in late 2015. It seems like it helped him get back to being a good pitcher.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by duwal

but you can't forget it was also a hitters era that he was in. Very few pitchers were getting under the 3.00 ERA mark in the A.L. Check out his main decade from 2003-2012 when he went from age 22 to 31, he finished in the top 10 in ERA 7 of the 10 seasons. He finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting in 5 of the 10 seasons, winning once. An all-star 6 of those seasons. He led the league multiple years in shutouts, multiple years in complete games

None of those statistics impress me....I'm sure that if one were to do the research, one could find quite a few pitchers who finished in the top ten in ERA 7 times in a ten year span, was an All-Star 6 times, and finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting five times in ten years.....maybe, oh I don't know....Felix Hernandez???

[razorsharp]

Originally Posted by JRX

Mark Buerhle threw over 3200 innings with an ERA+ of 117. Does he not get in because he got his outs via contact vs strikeouts?

Sabathia was better by any metric so it doesn't matter.

Every pitcher who threw over 3k strikeouts is already in the Hall of Fame or will be besides Curt Schilling. And we know why Schilling isn't in.

Sabathia not being a HOFer is a weird hill to die on tbh. Is he the greatest HOFer of All Time? Of course not. But he absolutely did enough to get in.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by mfw13

None of those statistics impress me....I'm sure that if one were to do the research, one could find quite a few pitchers who finished in the top ten in ERA 7 times in a ten year span, was an All-Star 6 times, and finished in the top 5 of Cy Young voting five times in ten years.....maybe, oh I don't know....Felix Hernandez???

The problem with Felix is he completely came undone in his 30s, similar to Bret Saberhagen and Johan Santana.

[Jazz Chisholm]

For one night, Elon Musk can take solace that he’s not the most pathetic loser in the United States…that honor goes to the chode who didn’t vote for Ichiro

[towerymt]

Originally Posted by Drew3000

We need to induct Jesse Orosco. The best ability is availability and he pitched in the most games all time. HOF worthy imo

Loved watching him with the Os in the 90s. Never a dull inning!

[Poorboy]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Hank Aaron not getting unanimous selection shows how messed up the voting can get. There had to have been something mentally wrong with the voters who didn't for vote for him.

Originally Posted by Jazz Chisholm

For one night, Elon Musk can take solace that he’s not the most pathetic loser in the United States…that honor goes to the chode who didn’t vote for Ichiro

Well I think you made your feelings known lol

[BigL7370]

C.C. is more or less Jack Morris, but played in New York and was well liked enough to sail through the first ballot, while people are still griping about how worthy Morris was and how overrated ‘pitching to score’ and being the wins leader of the 1980s.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by BigL7370

C.C. is more or less Jack Morris, but played in New York and was well liked enough to sail through the first ballot, while people are still griping about how worthy Morris was and how overrated ‘pitching to score’ and being the wins leader of the 1980s.

Jack Morris had an era+ of 105. He's closer to Pettite but more Ks and no ped. And then you have guys like Cone who had an era+ of 121, a Cy young with another top 3 finish, 5 world series, but lacks 200 wins. As much debate there is around hitters, the standards for pitchers are all over the place.

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