Should I return jordan high voltage because of Refractor line not listed in auction?

[robertscz]

Originally Posted by ck6599

You got what you paid for.......you were hoping that you got a steal, a card listed as NM, that you hoped would grade Mint. BUT, as the buyer on EBay, you can return anything and I’m sure you will. Did the seller try to hide the fact that there was a line? Maybe, maybe not, no one here knows but everyone has an opinion. This is the difference between collector and investor.......a collector would see the card as a beautiful, rare, NM card......an investor sees a rare, but flawed card that they will be not be able to make a quick buck on.
This is the exact reason why I have not bought or sold on EBay for close to 10 years now.
Just return it, you know you’re going to, even if everyone here said “no, keep it”.......it obviously is not as nice as you had hoped.

but would a collector see the card as "mint"?? i am also a collector, yes i was hoping to be able to grade it but i have many cards that i like because theyre cool looking, but are not gradeable.... if this card had small edge wear on the back bottom it would still be a cool card cause it would look awesome aesthetically... but man, that line cutting the card into 1/5 is really distracting u cant help but look straight at it.

[Kingofkings1281]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Seriously. The seller KNEW the line was there. You can't handle that card for more than 2 seconds without seeing it. But instead, he decided that he would deem a print line worthy of NM condition.

Well, in my book, a print line knocks the card down to Good condition. The seller is using his own personal grading system and I'm using mine. I can return it now, right?

Or maybe the seller could just do the honest thing and mention flagrant flaws that don't show up in the scans. Honesty. Geez, what a concept.

Because here's the thing: a modern card that isn't at least Mint is the outlier. Virtually every card that comes out of a pack these days is at least Mint and the overwhelming majority of them are gem. Everyone knows this. The buyers are aware of this and the sellers are aware that the buyers are thinking this.

So they slap the "Everything is NM or better!" in all of their descriptions and never have to explain themselves for anything. If they're selling a beauty, they'll get the bids. If they're selling a piece of sh!t, well, you should've been more aware. It's never the seller's responsibility to be forthright and honest, heaven forbid.

Arthur

I don’t need to say anything other than “exactly”, but I’ll add on a little bit. There have been cards I’ve bought off of eBay that have rougher edges or even slightly bent corners that I haven’t returned. I guess refractor lines irk me more than most general flaws. Regardless of grading, the OCD in me would be enough to return the card.

[duron]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Why must a buyer take a risk? Why can't the seller accurately and completely describe the item? Sure, this seller said NM-MT, but he didn't mention what clearly is (to many people) an important flaw.

Why did he do that? Well, it's simple: he thought mentioning the line would cause the item to sell for less. In other words, he was trying to get more for the card by leaving that out of his description...more because he knows the card is actually worth less.

Saying buyers need to beware is backward, in my opinion. Sellers need to be trustworthy.

This seller knows he's on eBay. He knows buyers are protected there. He knows he left out an important detail. If he gets a return, he knows he took that risk.

There is zero chance I would sell that card without mentioning the line. Zero. It's significant and needs to be mentioned. Is that because I don't want more money for my cards? Nope. It's because I don't want returns...and because I believe integrity is important in conducting business.

Perfectly put. I would even go a step further to say the seller intentionally left the line out of view.

Also, like HarryLime already mentioned, the "NM" catch-all used in listings is laughable.

[mc1]

Return it if you dont like it.

Although Id be curios to know if this insert has dipped in price. Just wondering, not making any accusations.

[CastleBeachCards]

Nm or not, the refractor/print line wasn't disclosed. Like others said, they bother me too.
If it bothers you visually, send it back.
If print lines don't really bother you.........keep it

[vincecarder]

In the auction, the seller listed the card as "Nm-mt" which is an 8 and that is what the card will probably grade unless you get a grader that misses it and it grades higher. It happens, I have had a lot of cards that are overgraded but nobody ever complains about that.

The seller had a Peyton Manning card that he sold with the title "1998 Finest Peyton Manning Rookie Card with Protective Film possible PSA 10" so he has an understanding of the grading game. If his ad said possible PSA 10 like the Manning ad then yes, send it back for a return. If the card was perfect and flawless and you got it a 10 would you give the original seller a cut of the profit? Nope, it doesn't work like that.

This is the big reason why selling raw cards is an issue with buyers that want gem mint cards at a fraction of the cost. I'd personally keep the card, all Jordan stuff is on fire and the refractor lines are common, I know there are 10's that have them. For reference, a BGS 8.5 sold for $616 which looks worse than this card.

[duron]

Originally Posted by vincecarder

In the auction, the seller listed the card as "Nm-mt" which is an 8 and that is what the card will probably grade unless you get a grader that misses it and it grades higher. It happens, I have had a lot of cards that are overgraded but nobody ever complains about that.

The seller had a Peyton Manning card that he sold with the title "1998 Finest Peyton Manning Rookie Card with Protective Film possible PSA 10" so he has an understanding of the grading game. If his ad said possible PSA 10 like the Manning ad then yes, send it back for a return. If the card was perfect and flawless and you got it a 10 would you give the original seller a cut of the profit? Nope, it doesn't work like that.

This is the big reason why selling raw cards is an issue with buyers that want gem mint cards at a fraction of the cost. I'd personally keep the card, all Jordan stuff is on fire and the refractor lines are common, I know there are 10's that have them. For reference, a BGS 8.5 sold for $616 which looks worse than this card.

But the main issue here is that 99 times out of 100, if you can’t tell a card has a refractor or print line, it was intentionally hidden.

Again, these omnipotent “NM” descriptions to dodge responsibility and transparency is a joke.

[StrongandFree86]

It could be because I know it is there but when I look back at the listing I think I can see the line.

[vincecarder]

Originally Posted by duron

But the main issue here is that 99 times out of 100, if you can’t tell a card has a refractor or print line, it was intentionally hidden.

Again, these omnipotent “NM” descriptions to dodge responsibility and transparency is a joke.

If a seller says NM-MT and he has good feedback and sells cards you better believe he's looked at it. All you have to do is look at what a seller has listed. The majority of his listings are cards that are raw and the cards he thought have a shot at gem mint he stated that in the ad.

If you don't want any surprises bite the bullet and spend more and buy a 9 or higher. If you buy raw and it's an older card you should have common sense and believe there is probably something wrong with it otherwise it would have been in a graded holder by now.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by vincecarder

If a seller says NM-MT and he has good feedback and sells cards you better believe he's looked at it. All you have to do is look at what a seller has listed. The majority of his listings are cards that are raw and the cards he thought have a shot at gem mint he stated that in the ad.

If you don't want any surprises bite the bullet and spend more and buy a 9 or higher. If you buy raw and it's an older card you should have common sense and believe there is probably something wrong with it otherwise it would have been in a graded holder by now.

The card is clearly a different card than pictured since you can’t see the refractor line in the images. INAD.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by vincecarder

If a seller says NM-MT and he has good feedback and sells cards you better believe he's looked at it. All you have to do is look at what a seller has listed. The majority of his listings are cards that are raw and the cards he thought have a shot at gem mint he stated that in the ad.

If you don't want any surprises bite the bullet and spend more and buy a 9 or higher. If you buy raw and it's an older card you should have common sense and believe there is probably something wrong with it otherwise it would have been in a graded holder by now.

It's sad that some sellers feel it's not important to disclose important flaws in an item. It's sad that some people think it's okay to hide those flaws, effectively deceiving their customers, and then blame them for not having the common sense to know they're being deceived.

Obviously, buyers that abuse return policies need to be held accountable. But so do sellers that operate through deceit rather than being honest and disclosing the true condition of an item. It's a two way street, requiring accountability on both sides.

Not all NM cards are created equal. Some flaws are more significant than others. Rather than toss out some arbitrary condition note, why not actually show the card for what it is?

This seller tried to deceive and get a couple more bucks. He knew what he was doing. If his card gets returned, that's on him.

If this card was NM-MT without the line, if the flaw that made it less than mint was a corner on the back, we all know the card would be worth far more than a card that's NM-MT because of a line like this. Common sense tells me this guy was trying to get over on somebody, pure and simple. That's why he listed it as he did, on the chance that he could take advantage of somebody...because he knew that showing the line would significantly lower his sale price.

Accountability.

[auburn35]

Sounds like two different topics are being discussed, inaccurate description from the seller and the buyers potential grading options.

If you're relying on the seller to disclose the refractor line (flaws); as a buyer you can't then expect something better than NM (whatever the seller describes), when a seller does disclose that opinion. Can't have it both ways.

Returning the card because you're not happy with the refractor line is fair but nothing is stopping you from grading the card, which still has chance to grade above NM.
I don't think the buyer has made their decision but in my opinion, returning the card because it won't grade how you hoped, is on the same level as the complaints about the seller not disclosing the flaw.

[duron]

Originally Posted by vincecarder

If a seller says NM-MT and he has good feedback and sells cards you better believe he's looked at it. All you have to do is look at what a seller has listed. The majority of his listings are cards that are raw and the cards he thought have a shot at gem mint he stated that in the ad.

If you don't want any surprises bite the bullet and spend more and buy a 9 or higher. If you buy raw and it's an older card you should have common sense and believe there is probably something wrong with it otherwise it would have been in a graded holder by now.

I’m not arguing that you shouldn’t have common sense and err on the side of caution when buying raw. I’m talking specifically about the widespread practice of sellers purposely hiding these kinds of flaws.

I’ve never even graded a single card and this still bugs me.

[JEEP]

Howabout asking for more scans of the card before you pay $600. I said before you could see a line. Did you even look at the pictures? If I was the seller I'd take the card and get it graded and resell it

[duron]

Originally Posted by JEEP

Howabout asking for more scans of the card before you pay $600. I said before you could see a line. Did you even look at the pictures? If I was the seller I'd take the card and get it graded and resell it

Howabout taking better pictures of something you're already aware of, but choose to conceal.

Doing that (requesting additional angles) also assumes most buyers are aware of all sets with print lines. Some sets can be... not so obvious. I'm sure we've all ran across many only aware of Chrome/Finest having lines.

[JEEP]

You are truly speculating on something and making it into your reality.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by JEEP

Howabout asking for more scans of the card before you pay $600. I said before you could see a line. Did you even look at the pictures? If I was the seller I'd take the card and get it graded and resell it

Again, why is the onus on the buyer to make the effort that the seller should have made initially? It's like a gotcha.

"You're buying raw, you should know that the seller is going to try to stiff you, so you better cover your ass by doing these five things that the seller should have done, before placing a bid."

WTF? It's the buyer's fault that the seller didn't disclose the print line? Gimme a break.

Arthur

[pingbling23]

So what did the seller say?

[robertscz]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

So what did the seller say?

well, i am going to return the card and unfortunately ebay had to step in and approve the request.... the seller was very defensive, telling me that he knows i am going to send a different card back (because i have multiple high voltage jordans waiting at home??) and that he always lists items if they have flaws....

but when i look at the posting again and again, the seller took photos at such angles where you cannot see the line. if they took a pic of the card going straight on, the refractor line is IMPOSSIBLE not to see. so i have to say that there is no way the seller did not know this card had a line.

i didnt mean to start a war or anything, i have never returned an item on ebay and simply wanted to know if this was a legit reason to do so. i appreciate everyones comments and help in the situation!!!

[japes3]

that line is prolly something I would mention in the listing to avoid any discrepancies within the purchase.

[JeffG1954]

Originally Posted by robertscz

well, i am going to return the card and unfortunately ebay had to step in and approve the request.... the seller was very defensive, telling me that he knows i am going to send a different card back (because i have multiple high voltage jordans waiting at home??) and that he always lists items if they have flaws....

but when i look at the posting again and again, the seller took photos at such angles where you cannot see the line. if they took a pic of the card going straight on, the refractor line is IMPOSSIBLE not to see. so i have to say that there is no way the seller did not know this card had a line.

i didnt mean to start a war or anything, i have never returned an item on ebay and simply wanted to know if this was a legit reason to do so. i appreciate everyones comments and help in the situation!!!

I just checked the sellers other listings, and they all seem to have pictures taken at the same angle.....is he trying to hide flaws in all of his auctions?

[htn315]

I'm one of those sellers that just say a card is nrmt or better for all my listing but that line is way to obvious to not mention and I definitely think the seller intentionally left out the angle that would show the line. A nrmt card with minor corner wear is not the same as a nrmt card with an ugly refractor line.

[BonanzaGrade]

Smh, you bought a nm card and got a nm card. <The end>

The real issue is paying $600 for a hoops card!

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by BonanzaGrade

Smh, you bought a nm card and got a nm card. <The end>

Except...clearly that wasn't the end.

eBay stepped in, held a deceptive seller accountable, forced return. Refund given.

<The End>

[mjrider]

Is his top of the middle finger also missing?