Redraft 2018-21 Rookie Class

[asujbl]

Sexton is severely overrated in this thread (it’s true)

The Cavs aren’t just losing

The Cavs are getting destroyed... and Sexton is a big part of that (counting stats aside)

[jcardstore]

Luka is so far above everybody else it’s not even a discussion

[bberns]

Originally Posted by asujbl

It’s not even close to a close call

Luka is on his own level

They have the same PER right now and Luka is 16 months older. How is it not close?

Before you quibble with PER, please note that it places MJ and LeBron as the two best players of all time (in that order). It works pretty well as an all-in-one stat that can easily be age-adjusted.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by bberns

They have the same PER right now and Luka is 16 months older. How is it not close?

Before you quibble with PER, please that it places MJ and LeBron as the two best players of all time (in that order). It works pretty well as in all-in-one stat that can easily be age-adjusted.

I have eyeballs

I’m not quibbling

[bberns]

Originally Posted by asujbl

I have eyeballs

I’m not quibbling

I love having debates with people where they cite their eyeballs as evidence and the fact that I am insane. It is very satisfying.

Also, @jcardstore, how is it not a discussion? I thought that was the point. What is your evidence that it isn't a discussion? Is it the feeling that he gives you when he makes 3 out of 10 step back threes?

[TraderJake]

Just for fun according to Hollinger's PER Zion and Luka are nearly identical this year 6th and 7th in the league overall.

[Spacemanspif]

If we’re talking strictly basketball team building:

Obvious superstars
1 Luka
2 Zion

Probable all stars, solid 2nd banana to winning team
3 SGA
4 JJJ

High usage probable all star guards
5 Ja
6 Trae
7 LaMelo

Upside
8 MPJ
9 Wiseman

Role players
10 Hunter
11 Halliburton
12 Ayton
13 Sexton
14 Herro
15 Clarke

[lietuvalabas]

Originally Posted by TraderJake

Just for fun according to Hollinger's PER Zion and Luka are nearly identical this year 6th and 7th in the league overall.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nuPVTU4Z4

[Spacemanspif]

Originally Posted by bberns

I love having debates with people where they cite their eyeballs as evidence and the fact that I am insane. It is very satisfying.

Also, @jcardstore, how is it not a discussion? I thought that was the point. What is your evidence that it isn't a discussion? Is it the feeling that he gives you when he makes 3 out of 10 step back threes?

If you already made claims that he’s overrated or fat, it’s easier to double down than change your opinion

[lietuvalabas]

Originally Posted by Spacemanspif

If we’re talking strictly basketball team building:

Obvious superstars
1 Luka
2 Zion

Probable all stars, solid 2nd banana to winning team
3 SGA
4 JJJ

High usage probable all star guards
5 Ja
6 Trae
7 LaMelo

Upside
8 MPJ
9 Wiseman

Role players
10 Hunter
11 Halliburton
12 Ayton
13 Sexton
14 Herro
15 Clarke

Agree with this with the exception of Hunter l, I think hes a guy that's "got it" but his usage with trae may hold him back

[Ericc5Bears]

Originally Posted by jfan2024

1. Luka
2. Zion
3. Ja
4. Shai
5. Trae
6. Ayton
7. LaMelo
8. Sexton
9. Wiseman
10. MPJ
11. RJB
12. Garland
13. Herro
14. Hunter
15. JJJ

As a Warriors fan there are at least 20 rookies from the last 3 drafts I'd take over Wiseman

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by Spacemanspif

If we’re talking strictly basketball team building:

Obvious superstars
1 Luka
2 Zion

Probable all stars, solid 2nd banana to winning team
3 SGA
4 JJJ

High usage probable all star guards
5 Ja
6 Trae
7 LaMelo

Upside
8 MPJ
9 Wiseman

Role players
10 Hunter
11 Halliburton
12 Ayton
13 Sexton
14 Herro
15 Clarke

You really think (and I’m serious) that SGA is a “2nd Banana” but Mortant is only high usage

My mind is blown

[oldgoldy97]

What has JJJ done to garner such praise? He’s always hurt. Same with Wiseman.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by bberns

They have the same PER right now and Luka is 16 months older. How is it not close?

Before you quibble with PER, please note that it places MJ and LeBron as the two best players of all time (in that order). It works pretty well as an all-in-one stat that can easily be age-adjusted.

How do you figure?

LaMello is 19-8-8 PER 36 this season

Luka is 30-10-9 PER 36 this season

That's the same?

[Grizzkid12]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

What has JJJ done to garner such praise? He’s always hurt. Same with Wiseman.

Agreed on JJJ

I don't get the JJJ and SGA love. I don't understand how anyone can take them over guys like Ja or Trae

Must be the same people who'd take Tatum over D Mitch and think Brandon Ingram is the next KD

[Spacemanspif]

Originally Posted by asujbl

You really think (and I’m serious) that SGA is a “2nd Banana” but Mortant is only high usage

My mind is blown

yes. SGA and JJJ are more valuable to a winning team because they provide flexibility in both offense and defense. SGA has already shown he can play as the primary distributor or as a secondary, while guarding 3 positions. JJJ has similar tools but as a forward. I don't think you could build a winning team around either guy as the #1, but I think that if I'm building a winning team, those types of guys are more important than the high usage guards which are much easier to find. going back to the previous generation, I'd also take Klay over Lillard for the same reasons, although in a vacuum Lillard is the "better player"

Trae & Ja are certainly fun and I like watching them, but I think they are both awful on defense, and on offense when they don't have the ball in their hands. They are good enough to force you into building around them, but they are also hard capped by their liabilities in these areas where the career upside is likely the same as Lillard. LaMelo is too early but like what I see so far and while his offense is nowhere near the other guys, he's more versatile because of his size.

[Ericc5Bears]

Originally Posted by Grizzkid12

Agreed on JJJ

I don't get the JJJ and SGA love. I don't understand how anyone can take them over guys like Ja or Trae

Must be the same people who'd take Tatum over D Mitch and think Brandon Ingram is the next KD

You had me on the first point but every GM in the NBA would take Tatum over Mitchell lol

[RogerGodahell]

The problem with PER 36 is it's based on what if's?

You have to look at what they've actually done and what they're doing. That's called reality. It's a much more accurate measurable data point.

[kordell1]

1. Luka



2. Zion
3. JJJ
4. SGA
5. Ayton
6. Ja
7. Trae
8. MPJ
9. Haliburton
10. Sexton

[oldgoldy97]

This thread has converted me.

JJJ
.
.
.
.
.
Everyone else.

Actually, JJJ solo will win championships.

[kordell1]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

This thread has converted me.

JJJ
.
.
.
.
.
Everyone else.

Actually, JJJ solo will win championships.

A 7 footer who can play inside or out on offense AND play solid defense is perfect for the current NBA game.

[jcardstore]

PER is quite literally the most useles advanced stat there is.

Bball index used to have something called PIPM which is now LEBRON. It’s a luck adjusted on off metric that’s infinitely better than PER. It has Luka twice as good as Zion this season and the gap was even wider last season (this year is a “down” year so far for Luka).

I’m not a math guy so I can’t explain the intricacies but there’s plenty of info on google/Twitter etc if you are a math person and interested

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by kordell1

1. Luka



2. Zion
3. JJJ
4. SGA
5. Ayton
6. Ja
7. Trae
8. MPJ
9. Haliburton
10. Sexton

Do you seriously believe Collin Sexton is better than lamelo?

[jfan2024]

Luka/Ja/Zion are an easy 1-3 to me and it's not even debatable. These guys are single-handedly carrying their teams to playoff conversation. Second best players are 20-21 bad Porzingis, Ingram (good but has not improved from last year), and it's incredible Ja has Memphis sniffing the playoffs when the second best player is Jonas Valunciunas. Western conference no less for all 3. Heads and shoulders these 3 are above everyone else by this alone. Cavs, Hornets, Thunder etc are terrible teams so I can't buy LaMelo, SGA, or Sexland just yet as Luka/Ja/Zion are close to a walking playoff berth by themselves.

Trae I have the same issue that I have with Ben Simmons. There is something about them that is so deficient that it limits your team building. You literally need to make personnel decisions to form an entire team just to accommodate Trae's defense and Ben's lack of shooting. That's why Trae falls below SGA on my list

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by jfan2024

Trae I have the same issue that I have with Ben Simmons. There is something about them that is so deficient that it limits your team building. You literally need to make personnel decisions to form an entire team just to accommodate Trae's defense and Ben's lack of shooting. That's why Trae falls below SGA on my list

Can’t the same thing be said about Zion? He’s not a primary ball handler, can’t shoot, and isn’t a good defender.

You have to tailor your team perfectly around his deficiencies