2000 Fleer Showcase Masterpiece Pricing

[APOHBatAutos]

Originally Posted by Atrox77

If eBay has a way to verify my purchases from the year 2000 then I can tell you the exact date that I bought it and the person that I bought it off of. I bought it as a Christmas present for my friend who liked Ray Lewis as a player, and at that time 1/1s were still a big deal (if my apparently God awful memory serves me right). I'm not sure why my memory of WHAT EXACT CARD is in question here - I stopped collecting cards around the early 2000s when my interests as a young 20 year old turned to other things. Then I regained interest (like many others) during the Covid shutdown when I was going through my garage and found my box of rookies that I stashed over the years. No, I didn't remember what year and what set that I had bought him. For some reason I thought it was 1998, but I guess apparently it was 2000. Why that is some kind of issue here, I have absolutely no idea. I haven't seen the card in over 20 years until tonight. I was out of cards. He was out of cards. The reason that I remember the dates was because I bought it for him for Christmas 2000, before I moved to Vegas in January of 2001. Do I remember the months? No. But I'll assume that it was a 3 month window leading up to Christmas. I said October to December, but you're right it could have been November to December. What's the difference, and why do those little details discredit this story? I'm not here with some high dollar rare card asking to sell it for 50K, it's not even for sale. I asked for advice and opinions, which snowballed into something else because someone else claims to have the same exact card. You're right I have zero proof, but if there is a way for me to get proof through eBay from my purchase history in the year 2000 then I can certainly submit proof (other than the fact that I've provided pictures of me holding the card, which also seemed to upset someone else because i was holding it by the corners).

I bought the card TOWARDS THE END of 2000.

The card exists.

I'm staring at it now.

I can't prove what I bought off of eBay (to my knowledge) over 20 years ago.

I have no financial interests at stake here, so I'm not sure why the validity of this situation is being questioned.

Whats the difference between this, and me having a backdoor copy and saying the following:

"I bought it for my son 20 years ago. The card exists. I'm staring at it now. I can't prove to you that I bought it for my son 20 years ago. I don't have any financial interests as I'm not selling this card, so please don't question the validity of my story."

See the problem? Anyone with a backdoor copy at any time can give some random origin story. That is why the details are important. Provenance is key. Your story as far as provenance goes a long way if someone knows you and trusts you, and they can then take it to the bank that they know exactly where this is coming from. Much like in-person signatures without an iron clad COA, you just never know-unless you were the one who got it signed. The problem is, no one here knows you, and the story has gaping holes in it.

If you want to sell it for the maximum value which is clearly the goal, have the card graded. Also do everything you can to find proof whether it be an email for the purchase, or whatever sort of receipt you can dig up. Even proof that you existed in the card world in 2000 and bought and sold items of this caliber or kind could go a long way as far as credibility goes. Sadly Fleer bankruptcy had things come to this, either for you or the other owner of the other copy of this card as well as countless of other owners of cards that were extremely devalued and called into question.

[APOHBatAutos]

Originally Posted by kaisersoze

lol deniers in this thread even after OP posting photos of the card

seems pretty obvious there isn't just one copy out there of these cards

Second, controversial, 1-of-1 Tom Brady rookie card sells at auction for $396,000

The question isn't whether or not there are 2 of them. It's which one of them is the real one. Sorry that went over your head.

And no, there weren't multiple copies packed out. That wasn't a thing.

[kaisersoze]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

The question isn't whether or not there are 2 of them. It's which one of them is the real one. Sorry that went over your head.

And no, there weren't multiple copies packed out. That wasn't a thing.

oh i get that. but there's only a front of this "other copy." mean while, the OP has posted his, front and back...and still denied

[mc1]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

The question isn't whether or not there are 2 of them. It's which one of them is the real one. Sorry that went over your head.

And no, there weren't multiple copies packed out. That wasn't a thing.

Well, theyre both real. Use the proper terms.

One is the pack-inserted version and the other is the backdoored copy. Neither is “fake”.

[APOHBatAutos]

Originally Posted by mc1

Well, theyre both real. Use the proper terms.

One is the pack-inserted version and the other is the backdoored copy. Neither is “fake”.

You can use whatever semantics you want, but I'm sure most everyone would consider the pack pulled copy to be the "real" one. Sure, it is also the "pack pulled copy". I never said the other card was "fake".

As far as whether or not a card is fake, has been altered, has had stamping added to it, or simply an identical backdoor copy is far beyond my pay grade. You can ring rogermaris for that.

But a huge lol @ "use the proper terms". Topps Heritage better stop calling their Autos the Real Ones. Use the proper terms Topps! Others aren't "fake" says mc1.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

You can use whatever semantics you want, but I'm sure most everyone would consider the pack pulled copy to be the "real" one. Sure, it is also the "pack pulled copy". I never said the other card was "fake".

As far as whether or not a card is fake, has been altered, has had stamping added to it, or simply an identical backdoor copy is far beyond my pay grade. You can ring rogermaris for that.

But a huge lol @ "use the proper terms". Topps Heritage better stop calling their Autos the Real Ones. Use the proper terms Topps! Others aren't "fake" says mc1.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

You can use whatever semantics you want, but I'm sure most everyone would consider the pack pulled copy to be the "real" one. Sure, it is also the "pack pulled copy". I never said the other card was "fake".

As far as whether or not a card is fake, has been altered, has had stamping added to it, or simply an identical backdoor copy is far beyond my pay grade. You can ring rogermaris for that.

But a huge lol @ "use the proper terms". Topps Heritage better stop calling their Autos the Real Ones. Use the proper terms Topps! Others aren't "fake" says mc1.

The opposite of real is fake.

Heres what rogermaris has to say on this subject, from his thread:

GLOSSARY OF TERMS AND HOW I PERSONALLY USE THEM:

Fake — A counterfeit card manufactured from the ground up in an attempt to imitate the original.

Real/Authentic — A card that, to my knowledge, isn't fake. Any card I describe as 'real' I would feel comfortable buying myself.

Backdoored — A card printed by the company but never officially released to the public. Generally leaked from the factory by unscrupulous employees or sold during the infamous 2004 Fleer bankruptcy auction. The vast majority were cut from sheets. Many have had fake serial numbers applied in an attempt to pass them off as original, pack-pulled copies.

Pack-pulled — Any card pulled directly from a pack; therefore not backdoored or fake.

[Atrox77]

Originally Posted by SleeperCards

If you have access to your old email, you could check for eBay notification from that time frame. I wouldn't sweat it though. What I WOULD do is send that card to PSA before the other guy sends his.

Hey sleeper, I've reached out to eBay on how to see my purchase history for the year 2000 (actually had to post in eBay community for an answer) so if that works then great. Hopefully I don't need the email from that year which is way defunct at this point lol. I will drop the card off at my LCS here in Los Angeles on my way to work this week for a PSA sub. I've been in contact with the owner of the other card but he said he doesn't have a reliable PSA sub right now to get his card to, unfortunately. He tried BGS but according to him "I got some bad news from Beckett, they said they don’t grade or authenticate Fleer Showcase 1/1s. I’m thinking about sending it to PSA myself." Those are his words. I'm not sweating anything, I have no financial interest at stake besides the $50 of my own money I'm going to spend to authenticate this thing out of sheer curiosity at this point. Any future transactions with this card from here on after will be between Tim and John.

[Atrox77]

Originally Posted by marinocollector

When dealing with high end collectibles, provenance is key. Especially if something like a manufacturer error allowed 2 1/1s of the same card to be released and it is not highly known information.
Fortunately and unfortunately, Fleer/Skybox cards from this era have become some of the most valuable and highly desired collectibles in our industry. When Fleer Skybox went out of business, a lot of their items were sold at auction, including, but not limited to, machine stamping equipment, authentication crimps, uncut sheets of limited collectibles, shells for GU'd 1/1 cards, unnumbered 1/1 proofs, and tons of other unnumbered variations to some of the rarest parallels.
Due to that and ever increasing technological advances allowing counterfeiters the ability to create fakes or alter these proofs, collectors have become skeptical.
Remember, we're all internet strangers, we're just voicing concerns and having a conversation.
Your gift has increased a large amount since you purchased it for your friend. Technology has changed since you purchased it for your friend. People have become more cynical since you purchased it for your friend. As the value increases and the stakes become higher, the more provenance you have the more comfortable one is with purchasing from you, and the more valuable the Ray Lewis becomes.
The collectible world has been this way for years. Heck, we have to endure fake Ted Williams autographs because his son was forging his autographs.

Great and helpful points Marino, my biggest interest in this is WHY Ray Lewis? I can see Tom Brady being counterfeited and also (going back to 2000) Jerry Rice, Dan Marino, Randy Moss, Peyton Manning etc etc. but why would Ray Lewis be counterfeited and why would his card appear but others have not? Maybe they have - you guys would know, I wouldn't be too familiar with the situation and I only know about the other Brady through this thread.

[Atrox77]

Originally Posted by APOHBatAutos

No one here knows you. So don't take it personal. Taking everything you said at face value sounds good, but the story again makes no sense. How would anyone know you have no financial interest here? $30 to some people is pretty meaningful. I don't respect the argument of this isn't some big $ item and it isn't for sale. So since you say you have no financial interest here, the validity of your story cannot be questioned? Doesn't make any sense either. The very OP talks about the fact that your friend wants to sell it and asks how to price it.

The most plausible scenario in my opinion would be that your friend is a made up character and it has always been your card, and it's not the real copy and you are trying to give it a backstory before selling it.

Sorry, that's just how it looks.

I don't even know how to respond to this theory. It's worse than when Kramer thought that Mom and Pop's end plan all along was to steal Jerry Seinfeld's shoes after establishing themselves in the neighborhood for 3 decades.

Here is my opening thread when I joined this forum. Never did I mention that I had a 1/1 Ray Lewis Masterpiece stashed away over the years, which I'm sure I would have at least mentioned as a point of interest if my plan was to make a buck.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1441983

[marinocollector]

Originally Posted by Atrox77

Great and helpful points Marino, my biggest interest in this is WHY Ray Lewis? I can see Tom Brady being counterfeited and also (going back to 2000) Jerry Rice, Dan Marino, Randy Moss, Peyton Manning etc etc. but why would Ray Lewis be counterfeited and why would his card appear but others have not? Maybe they have - you guys would know, I wouldn't be too familiar with the situation and I only know about the other Brady through this thread.

Brady has two known copies. I didnt recollect that when first discussing this thread.
I know a few unnumbered cards exist, including a Chad Pennington.
The odds of two of these popping up at the same time are very very low. I honestly only brought my concerns to light bc I was lucky enough to befriend other Tim on IG. If I didnt join IG in 2021, I would never have known of the second Ray Lewis. And if I didnt reach out to Tim, he wouldnt have known about the second Ray Lewis.
That really is the only way we knew in this instance. If it wasn't for the Brady information. Also, pop reports can be misleading since so many people resubmit cards. I own a 1/1 card that PSA also states it graded on its pop report, to which I did see one day and it was misidentified by the grader.
Even if only 2-3 of each exist, that is incredibly rare, especially for the era.

[Atrox77]

Just an update.

Tim (the other owner of a 2000 Masterpiece 1/1 Ray Lewis) had his card authenticated by PSA. And this one just came back as well. So whatever the story is I'm not sure, but there are two 1/1s of this card.

[Atrox77]

[SleeperCards]

Originally Posted by Atrox77

Nice. Wonder what will happen if the other guy sends his copy in now?

[Atrox77]

Originally Posted by SleeperCards

Nice. Wonder what will happen if the other guy sends his copy in now?

His already has been authenticated by PSA - not sure if he actually had it graded or not but we've been in contact for the past couple of months.