Is Joey Votto a HOF?

[Handsome Wes]

The Keltner List, from the immortal Bill James:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball?
2. Was he the best player on his team?
3. Was he the best player at his position?
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
5. Could he continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history not in the Hall of Fame?
7. Do most players with comparable career statistics make it to the Hall of Fame?
8. Do his numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
9. Is there evidence suggesting he was significantly better or worse than his stats indicate?
10. Is he the best eligible player at his position not in the Hall of Fame?
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he win an MVP award?
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in?
13. Did most players with similar All-Star appearances make it to the Hall of Fame?
14. If he were the best player on his team, could they win the pennant?
15. What impact did he have on baseball history? Did he influence rule changes or introduce new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Did he uphold sportsmanship and character standards?

Now, there is no standard like "if a player gets a score over eight, he should be inducted." But it's a good place to start.

1. While he won an MVP, probably not...? Definitely in the top echelon though.
2. Yes, easily.
3. Arguably yes.
4. No.
5. He did, but rather poorly.
6. Very best player not in the HOF? Aside from Pete Rose / Barry Bonds / Roger Clemens / A-Rod / current players... I am sure there are some Bill Dahlen stans out there, so no.
7. Maybe?
8. Yes.
9. Context neutralized stats slightly knock is overall numbers, but nothing significant.
10. I would say yes. He is the best 1B not currently enshrined in Cooperstown.
11. 1 MVP award, two other top three finishes, three other top seven finishes, three others receiving votes. Top three in NL WAR in five seasons, top eight in one more.
12. Seven AS games.
13. Yes and no.
14. No.
15. Sportsmanship & character, top notch. Impact on the game: arguably was the poster-child for a new era of the game that emphasized on-base percentage and advanced stats.

[jduds]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

The Keltner List, from the immortal Bill James:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball?
2. Was he the best player on his team?
3. Was he the best player at his position?
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
5. Could he continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history not in the Hall of Fame?
7. Do most players with comparable career statistics make it to the Hall of Fame?
8. Do his numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
9. Is there evidence suggesting he was significantly better or worse than his stats indicate?
10. Is he the best eligible player at his position not in the Hall of Fame?
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he win an MVP award?
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in?
13. Did most players with similar All-Star appearances make it to the Hall of Fame?
14. If he were the best player on his team, could they win the pennant?
15. What impact did he have on baseball history? Did he influence rule changes or introduce new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Did he uphold sportsmanship and character standards?

Now, there is no standard like "if a player gets a score over eight, he should be inducted." But it's a good place to start.

1. While he won an MVP, probably not...? Definitely in the top echelon though.
2. Yes, easily.
3. Arguably yes.
4. No.
5. He did, but rather poorly.
6. Very best player not in the HOF? Aside from Pete Rose / Barry Bonds / Roger Clemens / A-Rod / current players... I am sure there are some Bill Dahlen stans out there, so no.
7. Maybe?
8. Yes.
9. Context neutralized stats slightly knock is overall numbers, but nothing significant.
10. I would say yes. He is the best 1B not currently enshrined in Cooperstown.
11. 1 MVP award, two other top three finishes, three other top seven finishes, three others receiving votes. Top three in NL WAR in five seasons, top eight in one more.
12. Seven AS games.
13. Yes and no.
14. No.
15. Sportsmanship & character, top notch. Impact on the game: arguably was the poster-child for a new era of the game that emphasized on-base percentage and advanced stats.

6 is my favorite question and I think he'd clearly be the best non-PED guy not in. I think he's a shoo-in with his great modern stats and overall popularity and playing for one team his entire career helps.

[boxbuster7]

I say yes

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Joey Votto in 3 playoff series and a single elimination game completely went AWOL. Votto -0.45 WPA While Berkman stepped it up as being one of the Greatest ALL-TIME playoff performers with a 2.69 WPA. I don’t believe I have ever seen a gap of over 3.0 in matching up like players in playoff performances. Berkman carried his team and Votto didn’t.

They are both great players but Joey collapsed when the Red’s needed him the most.

If Votto would have shown up like Berkman, we would be laughing if he would be in the HOF. When a player is on the fringe, everything helps. David Ortiz is the face of receiving entrance because of his clutch post season performances. Anybody who suggested Ortiz would have been a HOF’er when Ortiz was 30 years old would have been laughed out of this forum.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by jduds

6 is my favorite question and I think he'd clearly be the best non-PED guy not in. I think he's a shoo-in with his great modern stats and overall popularity and playing for one team his entire career helps.

Did Carlos Delgado do steroids?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

The Keltner List, from the immortal Bill James:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball?
2. Was he the best player on his team?
3. Was he the best player at his position?
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
5. Could he continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history not in the Hall of Fame?
7. Do most players with comparable career statistics make it to the Hall of Fame?
8. Do his numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
9. Is there evidence suggesting he was significantly better or worse than his stats indicate?
10. Is he the best eligible player at his position not in the Hall of Fame?
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he win an MVP award?
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in?
13. Did most players with similar All-Star appearances make it to the Hall of Fame?
14. If he were the best player on his team, could they win the pennant?
15. What impact did he have on baseball history? Did he influence rule changes or introduce new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Did he uphold sportsmanship and character standards?

Now, there is no standard like "if a player gets a score over eight, he should be inducted." But it's a good place to start.

1. While he won an MVP, probably not...? Definitely in the top echelon though.
2. Yes, easily.
3. Arguably yes.
4. No.
5. He did, but rather poorly.
6. Very best player not in the HOF? Aside from Pete Rose / Barry Bonds / Roger Clemens / A-Rod / current players... I am sure there are some Bill Dahlen stans out there, so no.
7. Maybe?
8. Yes.
9. Context neutralized stats slightly knock is overall numbers, but nothing significant.
10. I would say yes. He is the best 1B not currently enshrined in Cooperstown.
11. 1 MVP award, two other top three finishes, three other top seven finishes, three others receiving votes. Top three in NL WAR in five seasons, top eight in one more.
12. Seven AS games.
13. Yes and no.
14. No.
15. Sportsmanship & character, top notch. Impact on the game: arguably was the poster-child for a new era of the game that emphasized on-base percentage and advanced stats.

Some of this can/will change when Votto becomes eligible.

1. No.
2. Yes.
3. No. He wasn't even the best player at his position in the NL.
4. No.
5. Yes.
6. No.
7. No.
8. No.
9. Yes. Votto was a lot better than his stats indicate.
10. No. Keith Hernandez is the best eligible 1st Baseman not in the HOF.
11. 4 or 5
12. 8 or 9. 6.
13. No.
14. No.
15. In a way, he is a poster child of the OBP stat. If he gets into the Hall of Fame, his case is 75% his OBP. He absolutely upheld the sportsmanship and character standards. Frankly, that is why I hope he gets in to the Hall of Fame.

Votto does not perform well on the Keltner List.

[jduds]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Did Carlos Delgado do steroids?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not as far as I know but I'd out Votto ahead of him slightly still.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Did Carlos Delgado do steroids?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably. Everyone did when he was playing and he played on a team in Toronto with a lot of highly suspicious guys.

[barry6124]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Joey Votto in 3 playoff series and a single elimination game completely went AWOL. Votto -0.45 WPA While Berkman stepped it up as being one of the Greatest ALL-TIME playoff performers with a 2.69 WPA. I don’t believe I have ever seen a gap of over 3.0 in matching up like players in playoff performances. Berkman carried his team and Votto didn’t.

They are both great players but Joey collapsed when the Red’s needed him the most.

What a terrible take. The 2010 series is his worse, but he also ran into the Halladay/Camels buzzsaw where they threw complete game shutouts.

the 2012 NLDS he had a .500 OBP.

13 Wild card, he went 0-4, but its one game.

2020 he was 36 and pandemic season.

Like its not great but we are talking a SUPER SMALL sample size. Berkman had 5x the playoff PA.

[MIRRABB]

Originally Posted by Handsome Wes

The Keltner List, from the immortal Bill James:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball?
2. Was he the best player on his team?
3. Was he the best player at his position?
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
5. Could he continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
6. Is he the very best player in baseball history not in the Hall of Fame?
7. Do most players with comparable career statistics make it to the Hall of Fame?
8. Do his numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
9. Is there evidence suggesting he was significantly better or worse than his stats indicate?
10. Is he the best eligible player at his position not in the Hall of Fame?
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he win an MVP award?
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in?
13. Did most players with similar All-Star appearances make it to the Hall of Fame?
14. If he were the best player on his team, could they win the pennant?
15. What impact did he have on baseball history? Did he influence rule changes or introduce new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Did he uphold sportsmanship and character standards?

Such a stupid question.

[barry6124]

3. No. He wasn't even the best player at his position in the NL.

10. No. Keith Hernandez is the best eligible 1st Baseman not in the HOF.


Votto does not perform well on the Keltner List.[/QUOTE]

What?

He was by far the best 1B from 2008 to 2020



Also, Keith??

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by barry6124

What?

He was by far the best 1B from 2008 to 2020



Also, Keith??

When Votto entered the league the best 1st baseman was obviously Albert Pujols. Pujols probably held that position until his early-mid 30s. After that, Paul Goldschmidt. Prince Fielder or Miggy Cabrera could have been argued for a couple of years perhaps, but Pujols was the best 1st baseman for the first part of Votto's career and Goldschmidt was the best 1st baseman for the second part.

As for Keith. Yes, Keith. Arguably the greatest defensive 1st baseman in history, has an MVP just like Votto, and was an important part of 2 championship teams. When you have guys with borderline stats like Votto and Hernandez, the narrative is important. Hernandez has a much stronger narrative than Votto.

I'd also consider Mattingly before Votto. Mattingly's career was cut short by injuries but at his best, he actually was the best player in the game.

In fact, without doing a lot of digging, I think Will Clark may be another one I'd consider over Votto had he won the MVP over Mitchell like he should have in 1989 or if the Giants hadn't lost the Earthquake Series that year. Even still, I'd flip a coin between them.

The tough thing for Votto is the position he plays. It's the same issue Mattingly, Clark, and Hernandez all have. Voters want eye popping power totals from their HOF 1st basemen. Look how they treated Lance Berkman. His career is a lot like Votto's and Berkman even won a Championship.

I'm not saying he won't get in. I'm saying it will likely take a while.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

When Votto entered the league the best 1st baseman was obviously Albert Pujols. Pujols probably held that position until his early-mid 30s. After that, Paul Goldschmidt. Prince Fielder or Miggy Cabrera could have been argued for a couple of years perhaps, but Pujols was the best 1st baseman for the first part of Votto's career and Goldschmidt was the best 1st baseman for the second part.

As for Keith. Yes, Keith. Arguably the greatest defensive 1st baseman in history, has an MVP just like Votto, and was an important part of 2 championship teams. When you have guys with borderline stats like Votto and Hernandez, the narrative is important. Hernandez has a much stronger narrative than Votto.

I'd also consider Mattingly before Votto. Mattingly's career was cut short by injuries but at his best, he actually was the best player in the game.

In fact, without doing a lot of digging, I think Will Clark may be another one I'd consider over Votto had he won the MVP over Mitchell like he should have in 1989 or if the Giants hadn't lost the Earthquake Series that year. Even still, I'd flip a coin between them.

The tough thing for Votto is the position he plays. It's the same issue Mattingly, Clark, and Hernandez all have. Voters want eye popping power totals from their HOF 1st basemen. Look how they treated Lance Berkman. His career is a lot like Votto's and Berkman even won a Championship.

I'm not saying he won't get in. I'm saying it will likely take a while.

And yet Helton got in this year and he has essentially the same numbers without an MVP

[rats60]

Originally Posted by barry6124

3. No. He wasn't even the best player at his position in the NL.

10. No. Keith Hernandez is the best eligible 1st Baseman not in the HOF.


Votto does not perform well on the Keltner List.

What?

He was by far the best 1B from 2008 to 2020



Also, Keith??
[/QUOTE]

How many silver slugger awards did Votto win?

Nice for you to compare him to players who didn't play every season from 2008 to 2020.

[fidrych]

As a Rads fan forever, I am certainly bias. Talented, quirky, wicked smart, introspective, ect.

I do ask (if one were to have a moment). Read his entire "post" regarding his retirement. Its pretty good and classic Votto.

[redlegs]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Joey Votto in 3 playoff series and a single elimination game completely went AWOL. Votto -0.45 WPA While Berkman stepped it up as being one of the Greatest ALL-TIME playoff performers with a 2.69 WPA. I don’t believe I have ever seen a gap of over 3.0 in matching up like players in playoff performances. Berkman carried his team and Votto didn’t.

They are both great players but Joey collapsed when the Red’s needed him the most.

lol, they wouldn't have even been there if it weren't for him

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by Stifle

If Votto would have shown up like Berkman, we would be laughing if he would be in the HOF. When a player is on the fringe, everything helps. David Ortiz is the face of receiving entrance because of his clutch post season performances. Anybody who suggested Ortiz would have been a HOF’er when Ortiz was 30 years old would have been laughed out of this forum.

Let us understand that members who believe that a walk is as good as a hit need to look at Votto’s playoff stats. In 12 vs SFG, in 22 PA’s Votto had reached base 11 times for a .500 OBP, he scored 3 runs which isn’t eye popping for 11 times reaching base, why only 3 runs. He had only singles and walks with zero RBI’s. Joey didn’t have a single XBH, ZERO in the playoffs. He helped the Reds reach the post season but he became a different player.

In 47 Post Season plate appearances he had a sacrifice fly for his only playoff RBI ! Votto’s run production was so bad that it was roughly equal that of a team with pitchers that hit decently. Great player who showed down when he needed to show up. He stunk when the lights became brighter and I don’t recall any injuries that slowed him down or I would give him more lenience.

[jplarson]

Votto is going in

Don't overthink it

You baseball boys are wild

[daveyc1]

Originally Posted by jduds

6 is my favorite question and I think he'd clearly be the best non-PED guy not in. I think he's a shoo-in with his great modern stats and overall popularity and playing for one team his entire career helps.

how do you know he is a "non PED guy?"

[barry6124]

Originally Posted by rats60

Nice for you to compare him to players who didn't play every season from 2008 to 2020.

The question is “is he the best player at his position, why wouldn’t you count the decade 12 years of his primary career.

[jduds]

Originally Posted by daveyc1

how do you know he is a "non PED guy?"

I don't. There is not a single professional athlete I would be surprised to learn used PEDs. He's just not in that group of proven and suspected guys from the Balco era. There are quite a few of those guys with better careers than Votto so I felt it necessary to add that qualifier.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Goldschmidt was the best 1st baseman for the second part.

It was only a 3-year window, but I think Votto had a strong case for being the best during that time:

2015-17:

Votto: .320/.449/.557, 94 HR, 165 wRC+, 18.4 fWAR, 20.2 bWAR

Goldschmidt: .305/.417/.540, 93 HR, 146 wRC+, 17.0 fWAR, 19.6 bWAR

[barry6124]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

When Votto entered the league the best 1st baseman was obviously Albert Pujols. Pujols probably held that position until his early-mid 30s. After that, Paul Goldschmidt. Prince Fielder or Miggy Cabrera could have been argued for a couple of years perhaps, but Pujols was the best 1st baseman for the first part of Votto's career and Goldschmidt was the best 1st baseman for the second part.
.

Pujols was better than Votto in his first two seasons, 08 and 09, then Votto won an MVP in 10 and pujols never had a higher WAR than Votto after that. From 2010 to 2016 Him and Miggy had almost exactly the same WAR and Miggy won both his MVP's at 3rd in that time(not to mention trout should have won both of those). If you extend to '17, he is definitely ahead of Miggy. So you could say from 2010-2017 he was the best 1B in the NL hands down, and at a minimum he was tied with Miggy for best 1b in MLB.

As for Keith. Yes, Keith. Arguably the greatest defensive 1st baseman in history, has an MVP just like Votto, and was an important part of 2 championship teams. When you have guys with borderline stats like Votto and Hernandez, the narrative is important. Hernandez has a much stronger narrative than Votto.

Defense is great and all, but lets be honest, its defense at 1B. Votto's superior offense FAR outpaces the ONE, yes ONE career dWAR of Hernandez. His WS performances were mediocre at best and pretty bad in the other.

[barry6124]

Not to mention, from 2010 to 2017 he was the best hitter in baseball by OPS

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by barry6124

Pujols was better than Votto in his first two seasons, 08 and 09, then Votto won an MVP in 10 and pujols never had a higher WAR than Votto after that. From 2010 to 2016 Him and Miggy had almost exactly the same WAR and Miggy won both his MVP's at 3rd in that time(not to mention trout should have won both of those). If you extend to '17, he is definitely ahead of Miggy. So you could say from 2010-2017 he was the best 1B in the NL hands down, and at a minimum he was tied with Miggy for best 1b in MLB.



Defense is great and all, but lets be honest, its defense at 1B. Votto's superior offense FAR outpaces the ONE, yes ONE career dWAR of Hernandez. His WS performances were mediocre at best and pretty bad in the other.

Reaching base is great until you have to play superior teams in the post season when runs are at a premium. Joey had a Post Season .1429 run production percentage for the reds in the playoffs. If he had done more he may have received more opportunities to be a force in the playoffs.

I do admit, I have to check how he fared in his run production as a Red. He did his peak during non DH’ing in the NL therefore it should be higher than a player in the AL who have Designated Hitters producing.