2015 Associated Press All Pro Team Announced

[socal805]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

You are missing the entire point people are trying to make here... nobody is saying Mack isn't a great talent.... what is being said is this. He lines up at end 450 snaps and we will say he has 9 sacks.... he lines up at OLB for 450 snaps and gets 6 sacks..... Neither performance of those two individual examples would land him as an all pro at either position; period. That is the point. You can't just take 15 sacks and say he got 15 at end and 15 at LB... that is the stupid part of the scenario. Whichever position he lined up at the most should be his designated position on the All-Pro team.

And... for the kick returning comment about Antonio Brown... it is this same argument in reverse. He should certainly be able to be an All-Pro for both positions. He would be returning the same number of kicks that anyone else would be returning that he is competing against. For instance; AB returns 30 kicks and Lockett returns 32 kicks. They were both full time at that position. It's not like AB would only return 14 kicks and play a different position as an up blocker the other 16 times. Playing receiver in no way has any bearing on how many snaps he takes as a punt returner. That is the difference

I understand your point...yet...

Is making the All-Pro team based on numbers? If so, then everyone is correct and I'm wrong.

Or

Is making the All-Pro team based on being the best player at the position? If so, then why give someone else the spot when he's not the best DE/LB.


I'm sure if tonight you asked the Broncos O-Line who's the best DE they've faced this year...

Answer: Mack

The following night ask them who's the best LB they've faced...

Answer: Mack

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by socal805

I understand your point...yet...

Is making the All-Pro team based on numbers? If so, then everyone is correct and I'm wrong.

Or

Is making the All-Pro team based on being the best player at the position? If so, then why give someone else the spot when he's not the best DE/LB.


I'm sure if tonight you asked the Broncos O-Line who's the best DE they've faced this year...

Answer: Mack

The following night ask them who's the best LB they've faced...

Answer: Mack

Clearly there is no reasoning to make you understand that he basically played 8 games at one position and 8 at another..... where the competition played an entire season at one primary position. You could sell me on the fact that he may be DPOY this year; I would not argue with that. He has done a lot; he is an outstanding athlete. I prefer Watt but that discussion is one that would have merit.... however, an All-Pro at a position plays that position. The fact that voters are even able to vote for multiple defensive positions for one player makes no sense. One voter can't vote for one guy for the first team for multiple positions... but each individual voter can classify them as whatever position they choose. This would lead to scenarios where a guy would most likely never be a unanimous choice and they could never lead a position in voting. See Mack this year, less than half the max 50 votes at DE and roughly a third of votes at OLB.... He should have garnered 40 plus votes a DE to really show how dominant this season was for him. In a year with weak competition at both positions outside Miller and Watt he made out well.... other seasons he may be cost an all pro spot altogether with this type of voting between multiple positions

[Cervantes]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

Clearly there is no reasoning to make you understand that he basically played 8 games at one position and 8 at another..... where the competition played an entire season at one primary position. You could sell me on the fact that he may be DPOY this year; I would not argue with that. He has done a lot; he is an outstanding athlete. I prefer Watt but that discussion is one that would have merit.... however, an All-Pro at a position plays that position. The fact that voters are even able to vote for multiple defensive positions for one player makes no sense. One voter can't vote for one guy for the first team for multiple positions... but each individual voter can classify them as whatever position they choose. This would lead to scenarios where a guy would most likely never be a unanimous choice and they could never lead a position in voting. See Mack this year, less than half the max 50 votes at DE and roughly a third of votes at OLB.... He should have garnered 40 plus votes a DE to really show how dominant this season was for him. In a year with weak competition at both positions outside Miller and Watt he made out well.... other seasons he may be cost an all pro spot altogether with this type of voting between multiple positions

I see what you're saying, but based on your logic, Mack shouldn't even be an All-Pro, correct?

[bubble]

Marcus Peters with second team honors. He's got to be getting DROY for sure

[RW3FAN]

Lockett, only rookie on first team........

[ekalbnz]

It's not like Mack was the only player to get votes at two positions. Others included:
Muhammad Wilkerson: DE x8; DT x1
Fletcher Cox: DE x2; DT x9
Aaron Donald: DE x1; DT x47
Calais Campbell: DEx1; DTx4
Thomas Davis: OLB x17; ILB x1
Jamie Collins: OLB x8; ILB x2
Deone Buccanon: OLB x1; ILB x1
K.J. Wright: OLB x3; ILB x1
Tyrann Mathieu: CB x2; S x31

Only difference? None of the others got enough votes in both positions to make it in twice.

[socal805]

Originally Posted by ekalbnz

It's not like Mack was the only player to get votes at two positions. Others included:
Muhammad Wilkerson: DE x8; DT x1
Fletcher Cox: DE x2; DT x9
Aaron Donald: DE x1; DT x47
Calais Campbell: DEx1; DTx4
Thomas Davis: OLB x17; ILB x1
Jamie Collins: OLB x8; ILB x2
Deone Buccanon: OLB x1; ILB x1
K.J. Wright: OLB x3; ILB x1
Tyrann Mathieu: CB x2; S x31

Only difference? None of the others got enough votes in both positions to make it in twice.

And why did none of these players get enough votes?

Answer: Unlike Mack...They dominated 1 position, but not 2.

[DalliLlama11]

Originally Posted by ekalbnz

It's not like Mack was the only player to get votes at two positions. Others included:
Muhammad Wilkerson: DE x8; DT x1
Fletcher Cox: DE x2; DT x9
Aaron Donald: DE x1; DT x47
Calais Campbell: DEx1; DTx4
Thomas Davis: OLB x17; ILB x1
Jamie Collins: OLB x8; ILB x2
Deone Buccanon: OLB x1; ILB x1
K.J. Wright: OLB x3; ILB x1
Tyrann Mathieu: CB x2; S x31

Only difference? None of the others got enough votes in both positions to make it in twice.

His point is that you shouldnt even be able to vote for ANY PLAYER at multiple positions. It isn't just Mack, but because Mack actually got both he is the easiest example. Aaron Donald hardly played De for the Rams and was primarily their DT. The press shouldnt have even had the option of putting him at DE. By the rules, the way I understand them now, Mariota could have been voted at WR because he got a touchdown pass. It is stupid to even allow them to put him at Wr because of one play. He wouldn't get it because he wasn't good enough, but they shouldn't even get that choice. Yes Mack was like 50/50, but tons of sub packages put lbs at de de at dts, but he would still be listed at one position on their depth chart. Go off that, that is what the team considers him at the start of the game, so make the players on the AP team their positions based on that.

Edit: The AP is already lame anyways seeing as they only have 2 wrs, when that would never happen. Then potentially 3cbs/1s or 2cbs/2safeties. Their entire configuration isn't done well.

[KevJo]

You know, the thing that surprises me about the "double Mack haters" is this. It's only happened once, ever. Now the system is flawed, the AP is lame, it's happened _ _ _ _!

Kevin

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by KevJo

You know, the thing that surprises me about the "double Mack haters" is this. It's only happened once, ever. Now the system is flawed, the AP is lame, it's happened _ _ _ _!

Kevin

I will say this; the Mack fans are getting a bit carried away here. First player ever to do this. Will it get him dPOY? No, it won't. He missed on nearly 20 percent of the ballots. That is quite a bit. Many other players got more than 41 first team votes. So before we hail him as the greatest thing since Lawrence Taylor... Let's remember he is not even a true DPOY contender this year and the voting will strongly show that when it is released.....And he had 33 percent of his sacks in like a span of 20 game minutes. Yea, he is really good... But let's hold the boat just a little; and I am a huge Mack fan for anyone who is wondering

[socal805]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

I will say this; the Mack fans are getting a bit carried away here. First player ever to do this. Will it get him dPOY? No, it won't. He missed on nearly 20 percent of the ballots. That is quite a bit. Many other players got more than 41 first team votes. So before we hail him as the greatest thing since Lawrence Taylor... Let's remember he is not even a true DPOY contender this year and the voting will strongly show that when it is released.....And he had 33 percent of his sacks in like a span of 20 game minutes. Yea, he is really good... But let's hold the boat just a little; and I am a huge Mack fan for anyone who is wondering

For the most part...Raiders fans are humble...We don't want to jinx what we currently have.

Yet when peeps are saying Anzah, and co. are better then Mack or more deserving. That the system is flaw, etc.
We will back up our team and its players.

Use common sense...forget the votes, the stats, snap counts, etc.
If they ask every Offensive Line in the NFL which DE you'd rather face...90% of them would say "Bring on Anzah". The other 10% would be undecided since they've never faced Mack. Remove the DE and replace it with LB. And you would still get the same answer.

Let's face it...every GM (except for the Texans) would trade there starting DE or LB for Mack. Simply because he's better then most players at those positions.

[CALVINXLIONSX81]

Originally Posted by socal805

For the most part...Raiders fans are humble...We don't want to jinx what we currently have.

Yet when peeps are saying Anzah, and co. are better then Mack or more deserving. That the system is flaw, etc.
We will back up our team and its players.

Use common sense...forget the votes, the stats, snap counts, etc.
If they ask every Offensive Line in the NFL which DE you'd rather face...90% of them would say "Bring on Anzah". The other 10% would be undecided since they've never faced Mack. Remove the DE and replace it with LB. And you would still get the same answer.

Let's face it...every GM (except for the Texans) would trade there starting DE or LB for Mack. Simply because he's better then most players at those positions.

I think you're completely wrong, Ansah was way more consistent that Mack throughout the year. Ansah has more physical tools than Mack, he's stronger and faster, he's simply a freak of nature.

Ask your boy Donald Penn who he'd like to face more because I guarantee he'd be saying Mack.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by socal805

For the most part...Raiders fans are humble...We don't want to jinx what we currently have.

Yet when peeps are saying Anzah, and co. are better then Mack or more deserving. That the system is flaw, etc.
We will back up our team and its players.

Use common sense...forget the votes, the stats, snap counts, etc.
If they ask every Offensive Line in the NFL which DE you'd rather face...90% of them would say "Bring on Anzah". The other 10% would be undecided since they've never faced Mack. Remove the DE and replace it with LB. And you would still get the same answer.

Let's face it...every GM (except for the Texans) would trade there starting DE or LB for Mack. Simply because he's better then most players at those positions.

Well, I personally think Ansah is rated much higher than his play has shown. He may develop more and prove me wrong but personally I don't think he is a dominant force of any kind at this point. I think a lot of teams would take Von miller over Mack, every team would take watt. I would have rather seen Mack get 41 votes for defensive end; to me that says I'm really dominant. To get 24 and 17 is nice and a good accomplishment but I don't think it does his overall play justice. I know the raiders have some top notch young players and there are certainly things to look forward to

[ekalbnz]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

I will say this; the Mack fans are getting a bit carried away here. First player ever to do this. Will it get him dPOY? No, it won't. He missed on nearly 20 percent of the ballots. That is quite a bit. Many other players got more than 41 first team votes. So before we hail him as the greatest thing since Lawrence Taylor... Let's remember he is not even a true DPOY contender this year and the voting will strongly show that when it is released.....And he had 33 percent of his sacks in like a span of 20 game minutes. Yea, he is really good... But let's hold the boat just a little; and I am a huge Mack fan for anyone who is wondering

I'm not sure about the bolded part. PFF, multiple NFL writers etc all have Mack in the running for DPOY with Donald, Kuechly and Watt. I'm not saying he will win; but he is considered a contender.

[Tarheelsfan2012]

Kawann Short should have been on the first team over Atkins although all 3 of the DT's had 11 sacks. Short had 3 FF and more tackles than Atkins and was the Panthers only consistent pass rush this year.

[socal805]

That's your personal opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. but I'm sure 32 general managers would disagree with you.

[CALVINXLIONSX81]

Originally Posted by socal805

That's your personal opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. but I'm sure 32 general managers would disagree with you.

So the entire league must think Mack is better than Ansah right?

There is no arguing with Raiders fans I suppose, I'm sure they still defend the team taking Russell over Calvin.

[socal805]

Originally Posted by CALVINXLIONSX81

So the entire league must think Mack is better than Ansah right?

There is no arguing with Raiders fans I suppose, I'm sure they still defend the team taking Russell over Calvin.

The league, the players and the Voters...Yes.

Negative on your last comment.

I'm sure if it was the other way around, i would take your stance. No hard feelings.

[Cervantes]

Originally Posted by CALVINXLIONSX81

So the entire league must think Mack is better than Ansah right?

There is no arguing with Raiders fans I suppose, I'm sure they still defend the team taking Russell over Calvin.

You do realize it goes both ways, right?

There's no arguing with Lions fans could be said, also.

Agree to disagree, but you can have Ansah, and I'll take Mack. We're both happy.

You act as if the Raiders fans are the only ones arguing a point.