Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

The total amount of trimmed cards PSA has graded with a number is way above 1% and in the millions. Unsure how many times they send a card back as trimmed/altered, but that is the other side of the spectrum where they send back cards that are unaltered as trimmed/altered or say does not meet minimum size requirement that are perfectly legitimate. You can pay a high dollar fee for an important card and get it back as altered and then have to resubmit and pay again. Both mistakes (number grade on trimmed or altered designation on unaltered card) show the company cannot do what it claims it can. PSA has to at least have knowledge that it is a fraud in claiming it accomplishes what it cannot do - Joe Orlando himself used to say if his graders cannot detect a card is trimmed, then it it not trimmed. Completely wrong. PSA has graders specific for cards from different eras. I will never believe it is not corrupt in relation to say 4SC which finances it or say celebrities like Mathis. Any amount of time spent would have caused anyone to realize the Bradshaw was trimmed and that is a major card. I would love to see a random person take that Bradshaw now and send it in after cracking it out. If the FBI wanted to do a real investigation it could do one with PSA by sending in the same cards in over and over and getting different grades and in getting trimmed cards past the company and in having legitimate cards designated trimmed. The only thing PSA gets right a large amount of the time (but not perfect) is authenticity (original versus counterfeit). Whether altered/unaltered or consistency of grade, not.

They're doing pretty bad at that when it comes to the 90s basketball inserts and 90s Finest cards with fake serial numbers.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I actually don't understand what you're asking.

I think you're asking about the relevance of my comment? It's because before Brent hired Jeffrey, Brent was absolutely getting taken to the woodshed (rightfully so) by everyone. He was doing and saying everything wrong. He could not get out of his own way. He just kept effing up more and more and it just continued to fuel the fury toward him. He was easily public enemy #1 and it wasn't a close race.

Then he hired Lichtman and shut his mouth. He started paying out refunds and they started the "it's actually all PSA's fault" campaign, which, has worked so well that it's resulted in the comments we've seen like above where people are actually giving Brent credit for his recent actions and calling for the tearing down of PSA in his stead.

While we can quibble over how much responsibility lies on the shoulders of PSA, one thing is absolutely certain: Brent was the focal point of a conspiracy to defraud thousands of collectors out of millions of dollars while simultaneously destroying thousands of vintage and prewar cards that can never be gotten back. He acted completely out of greed and malice and did so knowing he was committing illegalities while he did them. I'm not sure there's another person in history that is more single-handedly responsible for more destruction of our hobby than Brent Huigens. None of that can ever be repaired.

But his lawyer has instructed him to payoff some refunds that would result in federal charges so he's not that bad.

Arthur

Arthur

There are plenty of us who even before this went public knew of the trimming problem and blamed the creation of PSA years ago as bringing out the trimmers and counterfeiters. Those same people also realized the inconsistency of the grading process. I do not think anything PWCC has or has not done or through Lichtman has changed many of our positions or feeling about PSA as we already had them. I would give more credit to COMC, Superdan and corndog and the others on here in showing specific before and after photos which has turned the momentum against PSA from people who previously were believers in PSA than anything PWCC or Lichtman has done.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

They're doing pretty bad at that when it comes to the 90s basketball inserts and 90s Finest cards with fake serial numbers.

Correct. And some patch stuff I have heard, etc., but authenticity (which they should never miss) is the only thing they get right a good percentage of the time (but which should be perfect). The PSA/DNA division is a joke since Steve Grad left. You can send in something you got in person and know is good and they cannot even form an opinion.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Salt of the earth.

I think you guys are overlooking the very real possibility that someone broke into his house, has been taking secret residence in his basement, and been trimming all of his cards in his sleep before they're sent out for grading.

I own 3 Evan Mathis rc's (all of which show him smiling), and am a fairly good judge of character.

I'm pretty certain he wouldn't do something this fraudulent.

God bless.


fixed for you ninja

[3124508 on COMC]

Purchased by acme.cards from seller bcubs.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ray-1916470011
https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1957908

[pip]

Wow is that a narrow 1956 Topps Snider. Who on earth could ever get a numerical grade on that, much less a PSA 8.5?

That's just massive fraud on the part of Evan for submitting and consigning it and on the part of PSA for pretending that they can actually grade cards with any degree of skill or objectivity.

As far as vintage baseball cards go, 1956 Topps baseball is about as mainstream as there is. There's nothing complex or tricky about the set and how it was manufactured. Even a casual collector can see that the Snider doesn't belong in an 8.5 holder. All parties involved in the submission, grading, and sale of that card should be ashamed of themselves. What a con game grading has become. To me, this is PSA putting its stamp of approval on a criminal enterprise.

[ken161]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

I think it would be awfully hard to prove that PSA either has knowledge of specific fraudsters or is enabling it.
They are very bad at their job however. They grade such a high volume of cards, it would seem easy to slip these trimmed ones through.
Has anyone ever calculated how many trimmed cards constitute the percentage of total cards submitted to PSA? Is it less than 1%? How many times does PSA send a card back for "evidence of trimming?"

I mean, if there are emails or texts between PSA officers and others that sure would help.

I don't look at it in terms of the total cards graded because quite frankly there are tons of cards that never should have been sent to the hallowed halls of PSA in the first place.

I look at it in terms of what percentage of the "good stuff" has been put under the knife or altered in some other way. I think this percentage is very high. What percentage exactly is anyone's guess and is something I think reasonable people can debate. But a quick look at the VCP reveals outed card doctor IDs all over the place --- w***1, t***9, b***y, y***o, etc... --- like a virulent case of the measles. The aforementioned "gentlemen" do the buying, then a little "conservation," and finally PWCC or the big auction houses do the selling. Easy peasy.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ken161

I don't look at it in terms of the total cards graded because quite frankly there are tons of cards that never should have been sent to the hallowed halls of PSA in the first place.

I look at it in terms of what percentage of the "good stuff" has been put under the knife or altered in some other way. I think this percentage is very high. What percentage exactly is anyone's guess and is something I think reasonable people can debate. But a quick look at the VCP reveals outed card doctor IDs all over the place --- w***1, t***9, b***y, y***o, etc... --- like a virulent case of the measles. The aforementioned "gentlemen" do the buying, then a little "conservation," and finally PWCC or the big auction houses do the selling. Easy peasy.

I think altered percent of the market value of graded/PSA cards is a good metric. No idea what that exactly that would amount to, though I assume it would exceed 50% on the modern side.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by WhiteSoxJosh

I think it would be awfully hard to prove that PSA either has knowledge of specific fraudsters or is enabling it.
They are very bad at their job however. They grade such a high volume of cards, it would seem easy to slip these trimmed ones through.
Has anyone ever calculated how many trimmed cards constitute the percentage of total cards submitted to PSA? Is it less than 1%? How many times does PSA send a card back for "evidence of trimming?"

I mean, if there are emails or texts between PSA officers and others that sure would help.

PSA graders under oath would have the whole s**t house up in flames at PSA.

Originally Posted by JMANIA

The total amount of trimmed cards PSA has graded with a number is way above 1% and in the millions. Unsure how many times they send a card back as trimmed/altered, but that is the other side of the spectrum where they send back cards that are unaltered as trimmed/altered or say does not meet minimum size requirement that are perfectly legitimate. You can pay a high dollar fee for an important card and get it back as altered and then have to resubmit and pay again. Both mistakes (number grade on trimmed or altered designation on unaltered card) show the company cannot do what it claims it can. PSA has to at least have knowledge that it is a fraud in claiming it accomplishes what it cannot do - Joe Orlando himself used to say if his graders cannot detect a card is trimmed, then it it not trimmed. Completely wrong. PSA has graders specific for cards from different eras. I will never believe it is not corrupt in relation to say 4SC which finances it or say celebrities like Mathis. Any amount of time spent would have caused anyone to realize the Bradshaw was trimmed and that is a major card. I would love to see a random person take that Bradshaw now and send it in after cracking it out. If the FBI wanted to do a real investigation it could do one with PSA by sending in the same cards in over and over and getting different grades and in getting trimmed cards past the company and in having legitimate cards designated trimmed. The only thing PSA gets right a large amount of the time (but not perfect) is authenticity (original versus counterfeit). Whether altered/unaltered or consistency of grade, not.

Depends WHO you are. Its wishful thinking writing it off as incompetence. Its about money and handing out free money to certain individuals to keep it rolling in.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

PSA graders under oath would have the whole s**t house up in flames at PSA.

.

If I only had money for every time I've seen someone be less than truthful under oath.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

If I only had money for every time I've seen someone be less than truthful under oath.

Can NDAs be upheld if an individual is subpoenaed to give testimony?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Can NDAs be upheld if an individual is subpoenaed to give testimony?

No, the individual would have to testify. At least in a civil case, PSA might seek a protective order limiting public disclosure although my gut reaction (that is, without thinking) would be that that would be uphill.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I'm not sure there's another person in history that is more single-handedly responsible for more destruction of our hobby than Brent Huigens. None of that can ever be repaired.

Arthur

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Card doctors working directly with PSA graders... Never get cheated?

Not possible without PSA enabling the fraud...

It's similar to the "chicken or the the egg" dilemma.
We know both PSA and PWCC are to blame for their roles in this alteration syndicate.

Did PSA guide PWCC (card quacks) down their path of corruption or did PWCC create their own superhighway of fraud, with PSA only acting as an incompetent contractor? Maybe a combination of both?

[Jblaw1]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Can NDAs be upheld if an individual is subpoenaed to give testimony?

Most likely not.

Some NDA/confidentiality clauses require the person from whom the evidence or testimony is sought to report the subpoena to the other party and cooperate if/when they seek to quash or prevent the testimony or evidence.

They could then seek a protective order to try and limit or prevent testimony. However PO’s are supposed to be limited, and it would be a difficult showing in most states where they would have to show the relevance was low and the risk to legitimate business interest was high.

More likely would be a protective order to prevent pre trial dissemination of the testimony or evidence.

In most jurisdictions if it then is entered into evidence a MUCH higher burden is required to conceal such evidence as there is a presumption that all trials are public.

That is one thing companies who wish to keep bad evidence from the public see as a big benefit of pre trial settlements.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by auburn35

It's similar to the "chicken or the the egg" dilemma.
We know both PSA and PWCC are to blame for their roles in this alteration syndicate.

Did PSA guide PWCC (card quacks) down their path of corruption or did PWCC create their own superhighway of fraud, with PSA only acting as an incompetent contractor? Maybe a combination of both?

Strange how the "incompetence" mainly appears with high profile card doctors/submitters!

[WaveofCards]

Absolute WOW @ that trimmed Snider. What grader looked at that right side and thought it was legit?

It looks like the initial trim left chads and then they had to hack at it with exacto knife or something. It's literally hacked up, and get's slabbed as a 8.5.

[pip]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

I think altered percent of the market value of graded/PSA cards is a good metric. No idea what that exactly that would amount to, though I assume it would exceed 50% on the modern side.

Agreed. The % of cards altered is not a particularly good indicator of the level of fraud; percentage of market/retail value is much more meaningful, and that number is very high for both vintage and modern.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by WaveofCards

Absolute WOW @ that trimmed Snider. What grader looked at that right side and thought it was legit?

It looks like the initial trim left chads and then they had to hack at it with exacto knife or something. It's literally hacked up, and get's slabbed as a 8.5.

I wonder if they kicked any of Mathis's cards or even gave them a fair look. Comical for PSA to claim the grader did not know whose cards they were. Mathis was on notice about trimmers being outed and continued to act and got nailed by leaving his paper trial.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by auburn35

It's similar to the "chicken or the the egg" dilemma.
We know both PSA and PWCC are to blame for their roles in this alteration syndicate.

Did PSA guide PWCC (card quacks) down their path of corruption or did PWCC create their own superhighway of fraud, with PSA only acting as an incompetent contractor? Maybe a combination of both?

This is what I struggle with: Is PSA mearly inept? Are they rushing graders so much that they miss these? Or are they in on it?




I see how obvious these trimming examples are, and I think there is no way they can be missing these. Some of these cards being altered are so blatant, it looks impossible to miss them.


Plus, the logic of it all. These are cards that are 50++ years old coming up PSA 8's and 9's.---the possibility of that alone should have alarms ringing in PSA headquarters. People didn't store their cards correctly back then. The population of high grade cards from that era should be relatively small.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

PSA graders under oath would have the whole s**t house up in flames at PSA.

I don't think so. They would just lie and obstruct as all PSA/Collectors Universe employees have done whenever they have testified in court.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

[/B]This is what I struggle with: Is PSA mearly inept? Are they rushing graders so much that they miss these? Or are they in on it?

Time will tell. They are definitely inept. I mean, Joe himself admitted previously that they don't measure every card. That should be a given when examining a high-grade vintage card.

I still have a hard time believing the executives at CLCT were directing graders to handout favorable grades. That's corporate malfeasance that would lead to the destruction of the company if true.

[IHaveHisCard]

Looks the like this smart aleck got awfully quiet. Perhaps on advice of attorney.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Time will tell. They are definitely inept. I mean, Joe himself admitted previously that they don't measure every card. That should be a given when examining a high-grade vintage card.

I still have a hard time believing the executives at CLCT were directing graders to handout favorable grades. That's corporate malfeasance that would lead to the destruction of the company if true.

I agree with your assessment, unless it was the type of situation like Al Davis, the owner of the Raiders who said "I don't care how you do it, "just win baby"


Maybe the execs were saying "just grade baby" or maybe they didn't know?

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I actually don't understand what you're asking.

I think you're asking about the relevance of my comment? It's because before Brent hired Jeffrey, Brent was absolutely getting taken to the woodshed (rightfully so) by everyone. He was doing and saying everything wrong. He could not get out of his own way. He just kept effing up more and more and it just continued to fuel the fury toward him. He was easily public enemy #1 and it wasn't a close race.

Then he hired Lichtman and shut his mouth. He started paying out refunds and they started the "it's actually all PSA's fault" campaign, which, has worked so well that it's resulted in the comments we've seen like above where people are actually giving Brent credit for his recent actions and calling for the tearing down of PSA in his stead.

While we can quibble over how much responsibility lies on the shoulders of PSA, one thing is absolutely certain: Brent was the focal point of a conspiracy to defraud thousands of collectors out of millions of dollars while simultaneously destroying thousands of vintage and prewar cards that can never be gotten back. He acted completely out of greed and malice and did so knowing he was committing illegalities while he did them. I'm not sure there's another person in history that is more single-handedly responsible for more destruction of our hobby than Brent Huigens. None of that can ever be repaired.

But his lawyer has instructed him to payoff some refunds that would result in federal charges so he's not that bad.

Arthur

Arthur

I will add to my prior response to this. PWCC is still getting criticized. The first post stated he was still taking consignments from Mathis after outing him as a trimmer. The reason for the criticism of PSA increasing is the previously brainwashed PSA lovers have seen specific examples with obvious before and after photos that is being done by the few people on here. It is those few people on here that are taking the time with unquestionable examples that should be given the credit. When the first thread on here about trimming started, I myself thought wow these guys are only telling me what I already know and it would go away. But the researchers here took it to the next level and more traction was gained. PSA being called out should be credited to those researchers, not Lichtman or PWCC. PSA itself made the most pathetic announcement in response to slabgate which implied people showing facts were the bad ones. Pathetic. PSA should not even be able to grade cards (be shut down) until it can prove it can do what it claims, but that will not happen. If more people were not invested in cards from the Personally Sized Asset (PSA) company, we would see even more criticism. But those people are doing it internally and worrying about their assets. The people I talk to personally about cards do not deal with trimmers directly on anything, even if a card the person is selling and they know is not trimmed. There is still criticism there for PWCC. How does he have Mathis's cards in the PWCC vault trying to sell them? Even if the Super "Bowl" Bump PSA 10 1953 Topps Mantle was not submitted for grading by Mathis (but only given the celebrity bump), PWCC should not be doing business with any trimmers on anything. We know that won't happen to endorse the vault and for money. Same with the grading companies as all trimmers should be banned from submission. Sure people can ask someone else to submit or consign, but at least make them do that.

[Peties Army]

I know Im jumping in very late but that paper trimmer cant not be the one he is using. No way that thing can cut the smooth.

My kids have one for making art(not like his but very small) and there is not way thats what is being used. It could not cut cardboard.