BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[luckyduck]

A quarter of all recent black labels have been sold by his eBay account. It is absolutely not reaching to think he's get special treatment.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

You believe someone who claims to have proof of their innocence but refuses to post it?

I think estabahn is a flat earth guy, if that helps you understand his line of thinking.

[joey_peapod]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Didn't he also say he submitted several cards to sell through PWCC and Probstein?

0 Itrader do you even grade cards?

[mlbfan10]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I like the site format. Messing with it has a better chance of killing it than helping it.

ALA old Beckett forums vs the new one when they made the change forever ago.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[pejc300]

Honestly guys, we should stop responding to oddball, Superman Brandon, and pgisback. It is just clogging up the thread and it is obviously they are trolling.except for pg, which is sad because I like him. Don't engage and keep uncovering the submissions by WJC

[sfgiants4life]

Statistics found him guilty. Honestly all he needed to do was show the orders. He has those emails and paperwork since he does drop it off. If my buyers questioned me and wanted to see those documents why not open it up. He is not doing anything wrong. Right? Just look for his worst submission and show people...see...I submitted 500 cards and got 20 BL, 50 10's, and the rest 9.5s and less.

I am not calling for jail or the FBI or anything just clarification. He admitted that a lot of his Pristine orders were from small submissions...3/3. You are the one claiming that he submits tons of cards. He failed to offer any pictures of those cards.

So now you are telling me he looks at large groups of individual base commons looking for BL cards? Cards that if they don't BL he would lose money?

Cmon...

[KhalDrogo]

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...kie-1940967579

August 3, 2018

10716171 1995-96 Finest Michael Jordan BGS 8.0
10716172 1993-94 Ultra Famous Nicknames Michael Jordan BGS 8.0
10716173 Different date

Start of Joe Clemons sub to the best of my knowledge
----------------------------------------
10716174 2017 Bowman's Best Top Prospects Vladimir Guerrero Jr. BLACK LABEL
10716175 Different date
10716176 2013 Finest Nolan Arenado BLACK LABEL
10716177 2013 Finest Nolan Arenado BLACK LABEL
10716178 Different date
10716179 2018 Bowman Chrome Prospects Juan Soto BLACK LABEL
10716180 2018 Bowman Sterling Refractors Hunter Greene BLACK LABEL
10716181 Not Authentic Reggie Jackson NO GRADE
10716182 2014 Topps Update Mike Trout BLACK LABEL
10716183 2003 Upper Deck Play Ball Yogi Berra NO GRADE
10716184 2012 Panini Prizm Mike Trout BLACK LABEL
10716185 Different date
10716186 2015 Topps Allen and Ginter X 10th Anniversary Mike Trout BLACK LABEL
10716187 Different date
10716188 Different date
10716189 Different date
10716190 Different date
10716191 2014 Topps Update Jacob DeGrom BLACK LABEL
10716192 Different date
10716193 2018 Topps Gypsy Queen Shohei Ohtani BLACK LABEL
10716194 Different date
10716195 2016 Bowman's Best Trevor Story BLACK LABEL
10716196 Different date
10716197 Different date
10716198 2013 Panini Prizm Manny Machado BLACK LABEL
10716199 Different date
10716200 2012 Bowman Chrome Prospects Greg Bird BLACK LABEL
10716201 Different date
10716202 2017 Bowman Chrome Draft Jo Adell BLACK LABEL
10716203 Different date
10716204 Different date
10716205 Different date
10716206 2017 Topps Heritage Minors Juan Soto BLACK LABEL
10716207 Different date
10716208 2018 Stadium Club Chrome Mike Trout BLACK LABEL
10716209 Different date
10716210 2017 Bowman Chrome Prospects Purple Shimmer Refractors Fernando Tatis Jr. BLACK LABEL
10716211 Different date
10716212 2017-18 Select Rookie Signatures Prizms Tie Dye Donovan Mitchell BGS 9/10 (? Joe's card, sold by $guru$ three months later) (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ini-1960770728)
10716213 2015 Bowman Chrome Draft Draft Pick Autographs Ian Happ BGS 9.5/10 (For sale by eddiessportstreasures)
10716214 Different date
10716215 2014 Bowman Chrome Draft Draft Pick Autographs Kyle Freeland BGS 10/10
10716216 2017 Bowman Chrome Rookie Autographs Gold Refractors Alex Bregman/throwing BGS 10/10
10716217 2017 Leaf Metal Draft Wave Garrett Hampson BGS 10/10
10716218 Different date
10716219 Different date
10716220 2016 Bowman Chrome Draft Taylor Trammell BGS 10
10716221 2016 Bowman Chrome Draft Refractors Taylor Trammell BGS 10
10716222 Different date
10716223 Different date
10716224 2014 Bowman Prospects Jacob deGrom BGS 10
10716225 Different date
10716226 Different date
10716227 2014 Bowman Jose Ramirez BGS 10
10716228 2014 Bowman Jose Ramirez BGS 10
10716229 Different date
10716230 Different date
10716231 Different date
10716232 2015 Topps Allen and Ginter X 10th Anniversary Mike Trout BGS 10
10716233 Different date
10716234 Different date
10716235 2012 Panini Prizm Mike Trout BGS 10
10716236 Different date (10/9/18), but is 2012 Panini Prizm Mike Trout BLACK LABEL
10716237 Different date
10716238 Different date
10716239 2014 Bowman Jose Ramirez BGS 10
10716240 2001 Upper Deck Pros and Prospects A Piece of History Autographs Johnny Unitas BGS 9/10 (For sale by $guru$)
10716241 Different date
10716242 Different date
10716243 2014 Bowman Prospects Jacob DeGrom BGS 10
10716244 2016 Donruss Jared Goff BGS 10

At this point I started skipping ahead...

10716400 2010 Limited Sean Lee BGS 10
10716401 2017 Panini Phoenix Purple Christian McCaffrey BGS 10
10716402 Different date
10716403 2017 Donruss The Elite Series Rookies Kareem Hunt BGS 10
10716404 Different date
10716405 2017 Panini Impeccable Deshaun Watson HEL PAT/75 RC BGS 9/10 (Cannot find this card)
10716406 2014 Finest Red Refractors Aaron Donald BGS 9.5
10716407 2016 Donruss Ezekiel Elliott RR RC BGS 9.5 (Cannot find this card)
10716408 Different date
10716409 2013 Topps Chrome Didi Gregorius NO GRADE
10716410 2016-17 Select Prizms Silver Brandon Ingram NO GRADE
----------------------------
To the best of my knowledge, this is where the potential sub ends. Everything after this that I saw is a different date, is a no subgrade slab, or is graded too low to make any sense.

10716411 Different date
10716412 Different date
10716413 Different date
10716414 Different date
10716415 Different date
10716416 2017 Immaculate Collection Dual Jerseys Prime Platinum Mike Singletary/Walter Payton/1 BGS 9 (For sale by philthememman)
---------------------------

In my opinion, this lends credibility to the statement that the serial numbers are assigned after the grade is given. Although the BGS website directly contradicts that. So the question is why does this happen, and is the masking of the submitter being compromised when it does?

Obviously there are a ton of black labels in this sub. There are a ton of 10s also. And I did find one 9.5 at the end. Based on this sub in isolation, I would conclude that it is possible Joe is being truthful here, although the number of black labels is still concerning.

Again, this could be settled easily by providing just a few details about some of these subs.

[tonedef2oo8]

Originally Posted by pejc300

Honestly guys, we should stop responding to oddball, Superman Brandon, and pgisback. It is just clogging up the thread and it is obviously they are trolling.except for pg, which is sad because I like him. Don't engage and keep uncovering the submissions by WJC

Yup there are certain people who here see a topic going one way and no matter what they will just counter point it . They don’t care they just want to argue. Most when proven wrong just disappear and move on to the next topic.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

0 Itrader do you even grade cards?

yes mr. peapod I do! ask Those Back Pages---just got a BGS order back on Monday before this all went to hell.

5 cards-- 4 BGS 9.5's 1 BGS 9-(that I knew would grade 9 because of a manu defect but I wanted it slabbed (acuna relic factory set chrome card) beauty!

thanks for asking!


And I don't itrade. I either PC/donate/grade or put on COMC.

You are welcome to check out my COMC inventory. I have a sweet Jeter relic bat card from 2002 fleer genuine for $9 obo

[houdini]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

And by God, do they need to update this forum software to Xenforo. If whoever is running this place is listening (no idea if mods exist on BO, never seen any), feel free to shoot me a PM if you want some advice on updating the software. It's ancient - it feels like I'm back in 2002.

So you have an ultra-modern site but no traffic and feel this forum needs your advice on how to do things correctly? Got it.

[jmeryllman]

Leaf & BG went all in on this thread in defense of a scam. Hmmmm.

[blackbears86]

houdini: in with the subtle burn.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Here's a card he sold for $24 from that batch

BGS 9.5 Chris Sale Topps (9, 9.5, 9.5, 9.5) ID #10716327

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRIS-SALE-...p2047675.l2557

One thing is clear he sends in bigger batches than just "small batches".

That’s interesting. So the 9.5s and 10s get mixed, but the black labels are grouped?

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

houdini: in with the subtle burn.

I don't think you know what subtle means.

[notfast]

Just a few random comments:

It matters zero what anyone’s grading history is. No value is provided by saying “I graded 398585939 cards and never got a black label!”

People keep talking about these black labels being pop 1’s like that means something. Sure on some of the cards it does. But when you’re grading $.50 cards, your 9.5 could be a pop 1 because the majority of the world isn’t paying $10+ to grade a card that MIGHT be worth $25 as a BGS 10 and maybe $10 as a gem. Some of the lower end stuff I’ve looked up there are less than 5 graded. Pop report means nothing in these instances.

[callou2131]

Not only would he need the best eyes in the world, but the grader would also. No black tigers in 18 years. 3 in a row.

[RogerGodahell]

No one gets that many black labels. No one. Unless you're submitting 10's or 100's of thousands of cards at a time. I don't care how good you say your eyes are or how many cards you've looked at or graded before. That might be believable for 9.5's but not for 10's and especially not black labels. Anyone who's been in this hobby long enough knows this.

You'd have a better chance of winning Powerball then having that many black labels so frequently.

I don't buy this story for a second. I fully believe there is some insider shenanigans going on. Maybe it's a ring with millions of dollars being split between several people. It's possible. I believe the packages are marked and or delivered to the right people for grading.

Where there is potential for large profits to be made sometimes there are people with authority/power willing to abuse and cheat the system for personal and financial gain.

[3of5-2]

I'll add my 2 cents worth. I have had maybe less than 15 dealings with Joe Clemons. Not one time did he ever tell me something that was not 100% the truth. On more than one occasion he would look at some of my cards and instantly see whether or not any of them had any issues. I have received less than 5 Black Labels in all of my submissions. Like most on here, we think or believe we are masters when it comes to "eye balling" or cleaning cards for submission. The truth is, some are far better at it than others are. I will continue to improve my skills on looking for cards that will possibly get a black label. Joe is not perfect, and Beckett is not perfect, and neither am I. Until I am, I will keep my stone in my hand.

[Collinsfanatic]

Hey Joe one of these will gem but the other 2 wont. Put those eyes to work and tell me which will gem.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

No one gets that many black labels. No one. Unless you're submitting 10's or 100's of thousands of cards at a time. I don't care how good you say your eyes are or how many cards you've looked at or graded before. That might be believable for 9.5's but not for 10's and especially not black labels. Anyone who's been in this hobby long enough knows this.

You'd have a better chance of winning Powerball then having that many black labels so frequently.

I don't buy this story for a second. I fully believe there is some insider shenanigans going on. Maybe it's a ring with millions of dollars being split between several people. It's possible. I believe the packages are marked and or delivered to the right people for grading.

Where there is potential for large profits to be made sometimes there are people with authority/power willing to abuse and cheat the system for personal and financial gain.

I agree with all this^^^

[cowboyzqna]

Not for nothing... But I consider myself "one of the nice guys"

I just dont like seeing someone talk down on something I care about... Especially when that someone's name doesn't ring a bell.

It doesnt have to be here. Some of us have been doing this well before blowoutcardsforum.

If your not adding to the good you must be taking away from it.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That's me. You cannot be WJC or affiliated with WJC in any way. You must post a screenshot of the shipping confirmation email from Beckett, and images of the cards together once you receive them.

I was in for $50 and $250 as well. Same stipulations and I believe it should be a known member and not someone signing up now or in the future, but I did not state that originally so if it's a problem I will not enforce. Get that free money.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by cking

Its every single time 100% of the time.

When someone says anything positive about grading at this point they have some some type of financial stake in the grading game.

The worst part about it is, they are white knighting just to keep money in their pocket.

They are not white knighting because they actually believe what they are saying or because they believe in and have faith in the grading game.

Saying it only for financial purposes and not truly believing in what you are saying makes people look fake and phony.

Say it because you mean it. Not because you are trying to line your pockets from it. Thats weak. But at this point I dont expect anymore from the scoundrels in this hobby/business.

Absolute money grubbers.

I love grading, selling through consigners, and receiving paypal deposits from consigners that are BIG. It's fun times indeed!

[gabballplayer14]

There is a very prominent member here who has a history of receiving a ton of 10's and quite a few black labels as well who hasnt spoken up on any of this that could potentially provide some insight.

Interested to hear what they have to say on the topic and if they ever used Joe as their BGS rep for group subs, or had interactions with him. The grading world at that level is probably pretty small, so just curious what their perspective is on this situation.

They recently stopped using BGS for group subs as well, so I'm curious if it has anything to do with this.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by Bigbluesooner

Good point! It's only 8:45 here. Time to hit the showers and then the birddoggin' chicks will commence!

I had a great opportunity at the bar but didn't pull the trigger. FML