BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by 3XDAD

Hopefully my question hasn’t been answered and asked yet but: Why don’t computers grade the cards? I mean we are talking about objective facts and people are using subjective opinions. A computer would solve this. Unless there is something I’m missing?


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Probably due to multimillion dollar investments required in writing programs and algorithms that will perform a humans job for them.


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[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by luckyduck

Brian, the central issue is that your employee is getting a mathematically impossible number of black labels and is also currently managing your relationship with the same company he's getting those grades from.

Who was involved with BGS before Joe or who will be in the future doesn't matter if he's worked on your recent buyback releases, which now look suspect..

The right place to address those concerns isn't to me over email, it's in public on this forum.

Totally agree. We need to keep coming back to this central point (the impossibility of receiving this many black labels) and not let the defenders deflect this.

A “good eye” does not explain this event. If grading was done by a computer, than a “good eye” would be an acceptable response. But grading is done by ANOTHER HUMAN who is flawed. This has been proven a million times over. Take a card, submit it and get the sub grades. Now crack and resubmit. You get the same sub grades maybe 25% of the time if you’re lucky. Thus a “good eye” cannot explain this string of black labels because there is the other side of the equation (i.e. another human who has to concur). And please don’t state that the other human is a trained professional who does this for a living. See my previous statement about how the grades for the same card change. In fact, BGS tacitly admits this with the existence of the Graded Card Review. You can send a card already graded and they will review it and sometimes change the card grade THEMSELVES. How could this be possible if they didn’t acknowledge the subjectiveness of human grading.

A good eye is not an acceptable rebuttal to this occurrence.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by LEAF

BGS grades our cards. Joe looks through raw and pulls out stuff that will likely not grade BGS 9 so we dont waste money on no grades. There is nothing suspect about our buybacks where all cards are bought through ebay, shows, groups, etc.... We have never, ever purchased a BGS 10 card at all from Joe (regular or black label). You can keep saying the same thing over and over, but there is nothing to see here with Leaf.

BG

Brian, you keep responding to others, but not to me. Here's my recent post below. In addition, I asked you more than once what your explanation was for how Joe is getting his results legitimately. You've never offered one.

Brian, I commend you for being willing to come on the board. However, your purported skepticism because we only have "circumstantial evidence" vs. "real proof" deserves to be addressed directly.

I'm going to assume you have the best of intentions, and you just don't know that most cases are solved through what you're deeming "circumstantial evidence." Direct unassailable evidence that meets your apparent standards--such as a video or audio of the act being committed with clear images of all involved--is rarely available.

DNA is circumstantial evidence (1 in 500 million chance it's someone else). Fingerprints are circumstantial evidence. Phone records and GPS tracking are all circumstantial evidence. Even confessions are often false.

This case, like most others, is made through circumstantial evidence. Plenty of people on death row can tell you that. And in this case math is the evidence. Consider a few pieces.

1) Joe Clemons accounts for over 25% of all recent Black Label sales on eBay. Yet he doesn't appear to account for even 1% of all the cards submitted to BGS. That alone, is suspicous, but there's much more.

2) As I pointed out earlier, if you look at a specific brand like 2018 Topps Chrome Update--even including Joe's grades in the Pop Report, the odds of getting a Black Label are 1 in 33. Joe got 8 in a row in one submission, the odds of which are over 1 in 1.4 trillion. Now multiply that 1.4 trillion by the odds on all his other Black Label submissions.

3) Joe often has the only Black Label(s) in a card's entire population report even though there are sometimes dozens or over 100 other graded copies. Sometimes he gets a Black Labels after a decade of submissions from other people, where nobody else got a Black Label. This is completely counterintuitive since one would expect cards to be in better condition closer to release date.

None of this is to mention that no other Blowout member has been able to produce one of their own submissions in which they got 3 Black Labels in a row. Joe does that and worse like twice a month.

Joe's eBay and Blowout purchase/sales record does not support Joe's own story. He supposedly goes through tens of thousands of ungraded cards but there is no record of him buying or selling even hundreds of ungraded cards in the past year.

He won't even argue that his unprecedented grades that'd we've uncovered were part of larger submissions--because they were not.

Or something else you and Joe's defenders consistently gloss over--the connection between Joe and other user IDs, with feedback records showing he consistently bought his own cards.

So while I again commend you for coming on the boards--being neutral at this point is ignoring overwhelming evidence. And dismissing everything uncovered thus far because it's "circumstantial" is the kind of thinking that would free most of the violent offenders or con artists in our prisons.

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by pgisback

He did get "caught". Because he has a ton of black labels, lol. If you think selling a bunch of low end black labels to make couple thousand dollars is what an expert criminal would do with the power of a man on the inside, I don't know what to tell you.

Theres nothing you can tell me, bro.
I do this for a living so your opinion simply doesnt have much weight with me. But it is your opinion, and who am I to take that away from you.

Edit: you're also not reading my response.
I said the best cons are the ones where noone got caught OR WHEN THEY DID, THE DAMAGE WAS ALREADY DONE.

In this case, it's the ladder.

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[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by MNmoose78

It was brought up earlier that he made about $33k just from his account alone within the last year, and that’s probably low, and who knows what he’s making through consignment

That number is entirely false and a significant underestimate. lisu claimed Joe sold 170 non-black label 10s over the last year, and that PWCC sold just 85. Those numbers were from Terapeak.

My ebay search last night of "pristine pwcc -psa -sgc -label" yielded 205 sales dating back to mid-March. PWCC sold more than 17k items in their last auction round. To suggest they sold just 85 non-black label BGS 10s over the last year is moronic.

[devo]

This is just nuts.

You collect high grade vintage? Good possibility the card was trimmed or altered in some way.

You collect low grade, high eye appeal vintage? Same thing. Good chance it was trimmed/altered.

You collect high end modern? Solid chance it was trimmed/altered.

You collect low-end, high-grade modern? Good chance that if it wasn't trimmed/altered, it was fraudulently given that grade due to preferential treatment of some sort.

Honestly though, what is safe anymore?

Vintage, modern, high grade, low grade, $10k card, $1 card... it doesn't matter. It all seems questionable now after reading through these threads.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by 3XDAD

Hopefully my question hasn’t been answered and asked yet but: Why don’t computers grade the cards? I mean we are talking about objective facts and people are using subjective opinions. A computer would solve this. Unless there is something I’m missing?


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Give it another 10-15 years. Google is probably working on it. It will be right after Waymo.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by LEAF

BGS grades our cards. Joe looks through raw and pulls out stuff that will likely not grade BGS 9 so we dont waste money on no grades. There is nothing suspect about our buybacks where all cards are bought through ebay, shows, groups, etc.... We have never, ever purchased a BGS 10 card at all from Joe (regular or black label). You can keep saying the same thing over and over, but there is nothing to see here with Leaf.

Along those lines, you may feel free to email further questions to brian@leaftradingcards.com (and you have my permission to post my reply in its entirety here). I am committed to not distracting form this or any other thread with my unwanted opinions/thoughts/etc....

BG

P.s.

Your opinions aren't unwanted. Your snark responses yesterday were. Glad to see you've taken an approach today that is more consistent with how a CEO of a company should address his consumers.

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I think it's funny the guy got caught because he is selling too many black labels but he's a mastermind criminal because he stayed under the radar, lol.

Can you point to the response where someone claimed that the alleged was a "mastermind"

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[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

Probably due to multimillion dollar investments required in writing programs and algorithms that will perform a humans job for them.


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There are some simple measures that could be done right now that wouldn't be that complicated.

I'm thinking something that you could slide the cards under like a scanner. Not necessarily a scanner but a device with a camera that would bring up a magnified image on computer screen. Then use a simple pixel ruler to measure centering.

Seems like it would be much more comfortable then staring through a loupe all day.

The automated software could come later. A pixel page ruler would be far more accurate for measuring centering and looking for trimmed cards then a ruler though. That would be a good start imo.

[huskies3]

Originally Posted by pgisback

The question becomes why would beckett care about 100s upon 100s of low end cards that get black labels, 10s, and 9.5s? Lol. They don't. Who knows why they separate out the orders like that. That doesn't prove guilt by any means. The fact he submits so many cards and doesn't always get black labels or 10s instantly pokes some holes in your guys theories. Why would anyone who has access to any grade they want from the inside deal with so many low end 9.5s, ha. It's much more believable he just sends in tons of low end modern cards and probably is better eye than most then that he is part of some low end black label criminal enterprise, lol. Worst criminal ever.

Beckett the company might not, but the employees who are assigning the grades probably do if they have a financial stake in it. You are bending so far backwards to explain this, it's ridiculous.

[CapeTownCards]

Originally Posted by devo

This is just nuts.

You collect high grade vintage? Good possibility the card was trimmed or altered in some way.

You collect low grade, high eye appeal vintage? Same thing. Good chance it was trimmed/altered.

You collect high end modern? Solid chance it was trimmed/altered.

You collect low-end, high-grade modern? Good chance that if it wasn't trimmed/altered, it was fraudulently given that grade due to preferential treatment of some sort.

Honestly though, what is safe anymore?

Vintage, modern, high grade, low grade, $10k card, $1 card... it doesn't matter. It all seems questionable now after reading through these threads.

Sealed wax

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Brian, you keep responding to others, but not to me. Here's my recent post below. In addition, I asked you more than once what your explanation was for how Joe is getting his results legitimately. You've never offered one.

Brian, I commend you for being willing to come on the board. However, your purported skepticism because we only have "circumstantial evidence" vs. "real proof" deserves to be addressed directly.

I'm going to assume you have the best of intentions, and you just don't know that most cases are solved through what you're deeming "circumstantial evidence." Direct unassailable evidence that meets your apparent standards--such as a video or audio of the act being committed with clear images of all involved--is rarely available.

DNA is circumstantial evidence (1 in 500 million chance it's someone else). Fingerprints are circumstantial evidence. Phone records and GPS tracking are all circumstantial evidence. Even confessions are often false.

This case, like most others, is made through circumstantial evidence. Plenty of people on death row can tell you that. And in this case math is the evidence. Consider a few pieces.

1) Joe Clemons accounts for over 25% of all recent Black Label sales on eBay. Yet he doesn't appear to account for even 1% of all the cards submitted to BGS. That alone, is suspicous, but there's much more.

2) As I pointed out earlier, if you look at a specific brand like 2018 Topps Chrome Update--even including Joe's grades in the Pop Report, the odds of getting a Black Label are 1 in 33. Joe got 8 in a row in one submission, the odds of which are over 1 in 1.4 trillion. Now multiply that 1.4 trillion by the odds on all his other Black Label submissions.

3) Joe often has the only Black Label(s) in a card's entire population report even though there are sometimes dozens or over 100 other graded copies. Sometimes he gets a Black Labels after a decade of submissions from other people, where nobody else got a Black Label. This is completely counterintuitive since one would expect cards to be in better condition closer to release date.

None of this is to mention that no other Blowout member has been able to produce one of their own submissions in which they got 3 Black Labels in a row. Joe does that and worse like twice a month.

Joe's eBay and Blowout purchase/sales record does not support Joe's own story. He supposedly goes through tens of thousands of ungraded cards but there is no record of him buying or selling even hundreds of ungraded cards in the past year.

He won't even argue that his unprecedented grades that'd we've uncovered were part of larger submissions--because they were not.

Or something else you and Joe's defenders consistently gloss over--the connection between Joe and other user IDs, with feedback records showing he consistently bought his own cards.

So while I again commend you for coming on the boards--being neutral at this point is ignoring overwhelming evidence. And dismissing everything uncovered thus far because it's "circumstantial" is the kind of thinking that would free most of the violent offenders or con artists in our prisons.

As I said, I am waiting to speak to Superdan49 to help try to find a satisfactory way for the two sides to get to the bottom of the facts once and for all. I am merely a fascilitator of the two sides. I am not a blind defender.

Once he calls me, I hope we can find a satisfactory way of reaching the truth.
BG

P.s. #1- I can tell you with complete certainty that Joe has never owned, partnered with or anything else First Class Card Guys. He explained this in his final reply, but it clearly wasn’t internalized. I can try to reach Cicero Gamez (the owner of First class) so he can verify this if it would help. I haven’t spoken to him in 5 years, but I’m sure he can be tracked down. (And before you say it, I have bought 20 items the same day from one seller and that doesnt have a hidden meaning),....

P.s. #2- being honest, there is nothing he will say to you at this point that will change your mind. You are among the most passionate accusers in this thread (which is your right) and as I said, it is not my fight, it is Joe’s. I merely wish that we find out the truth soon as I do not think the public bashing on social media is fair or appropriate given what we KNOW.

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Your opinions aren't unwanted. Your snark responses yesterday were. Glad to see you've taken an approach today that is more consistent with how a CEO of a company should address his consumers.

Like I said, we evolve and grow every day.
Thanks for the kind words... BG

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I think it's funny the guy got caught because he is selling too many black labels but he's a mastermind criminal because he stayed under the radar, lol.

My God you're annoying and clueless. Congratulations on being my first blocked poster.

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by pgisback

You just lectured me on how he is not an amateur criminal because the best criminals stay under the radar, yet here we are talking about this guy being a criminal for doing the exact thing you say makes him not an amateur. The fact you don't find the irony in that is hilarious. But who am I to tell a man who has it all figured out that they are wrong. I mean having a man on the inside, obviously the best thing to do is sell tons of low end black labels and make couple thousand dollars over the years, lol.

I didnt say he was NOT an amateur criminal, a mastermind or otherwise.. nor did I imply it.

What I did say was that subbing little cards was part of the plan to stay under the radar to avoid detection.

I would tell you to learn how to read, but I dont think it would gain any traction.
However, do me a favor and dont put words in my mouth. I have posted all along that what I write is my opinion, nothing more.

I'm going to disengage from this conversation with you in this particular thread.



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[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by pgisback

By the way, love your touch of adding "lol" to the end of every sentence. Makes you sound more clueless than your statements which is hard to believe.

[callou2131]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Eh, black labels in general draw attention. Having 30-40 black labels listed of cards no one grades to me is much more ridiculous then pretending to be in the high end card market. I don't understand why people keep saying it's suspicious to be selling high end cards, people do it all the time. To me a black label mookie common is far more suspicious than a BGS 10 mike trout update.

Having a man on the inside would be literally one of the easiest scams in the history of the collectible world. So many ways to make a living without having to peddle 100s of low end cards.

Last time I will respond to you about this. You have said several times that it isnt suspicious for high end cards. There was a thread in the McDavid rookies. People noticed, and it was questioned. Why the sudden burst of amazing grades. Hockey is probably a 10th or less of baseball collectors and basketball collectors. If it was noticed on a hockey card where thousands have been graded, it would certainly be noticed on high end baseball and basketball.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by LEAF

As I said, I am waiting to speak to Superdan49 to help try to find a satisfactory way for the two sides to get to the bottom of the facts once and for all. I am merely a fascilitator of the two sides. I am not a blind defender.

Once he calls me, I hope we can find a satisfactory way of reaching the truth.
BG

P.s. #1- I can tell you with complete certainty that Joe has never owned, partnered with or anything else First Class Card Guys. He explained this in his final reply, but it clearly wasn’t internalized. I can try to reach Cicero Gamez (the owner of First class) so he can verify this if it would help. I haven’t spoken to him in 5 years, but I’m sure he can be tracked down. (And before you say it, I have bought 20 items the same day from one seller and that doesnt have a hidden meaning),....

P.s. #2- being honest, there is nothing he will say to you at this point that will change your mind. You are among the most passionate accusers in this thread (which is your right) and as I said, it is not my fight, it is Joe’s. I merely wish that we find out the truth soon as I do not think the public bashing on social media is fair or appropriate given what we KNOW.

Want to help us reach the truth? Tell BGS you're ceasing all business with them until:
1) They release a complete record of all of Joe Clemons' BGS submissions and results, along with identifying the grader(s) who graded each submission.
2) They hire an independent third party to conduct an investigation, the findings and conclusions of which will be shared publicly.
3) Joe Clemons releases the records of all of his card purchases and sales through Blowout and eBay in the past year, including his submissions to consigners.

If you're sincerely interested in the truth, use your influence for good and take the steps above.

[superdan49]

Here's two more BGS orders from Joe:

2/19/19 (1 card order / 1 Black Label)
0011142977 2018 Topps Allen and Ginter Ronald Acuna Jr. RC BGS 10 Black Label

10/04/18 (6 card order/4 Black Labels)
0010851651 2018 Panini National Convention Rookie Memorabilia Escher Squares Lamar Jackson BGS 9 Mint
0010851652 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Gold LiAngelo Ball BGS 10 Black Label
0010851653 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Purple Derrius Guice BGS 10 Black Label
0010851654 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Purple Doyle Brunson BGS 10 Black Label
0010851655 2018 Panini National Convention Gold VIP Memorabilia 5 Deshaun Watson BGS 9.5 Gem
0010851656 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Purple LiAngelo Ball BGS 10 Black Label


What I don't understand is the one card orders he has. Even with a BGS 9.5 Gem Mint, that Acuna only sells for $22 shipped. Between grading fees and shipping, he would have lost significant money if he did not score a Pristine 10 or better on it.

This is now the fourth grading order where he has submitted a one-card order with a card valued under $20 raw and hit a BGS 10 Black Label. That alone should call into question what is going on here.

[robert0629]

I've read this entire thread. Great job by the OP and the others on here who have brought this to light. I'm not saying I believe he's guilty of anything, but the statistical probability of him receiving this many black labels is concerning. I think it's at least enough to warrant an investigation from BGS.

After reading the thread a couple of things have stood out to me. Someone mentioned there may be junior or senior graders at BGS. If that is the case, then perhaps his inside guy is one of the junior graders. It's possible it has something to do with the declared value of the cards he submitting. Maybe that's why he mostly submits low-end cards. He mentioned that he does fast turnaround times. Maybe he knows when his guy will be working, and the likelihood that he will grade his order. Perhaps if he submitted cards with high declared values he wouldn't have the same chance of success, because his guy wouldn't get to grade those cards.

A couple of other things. BG mentioned, I believe in his first post in this thread, that the top graders make over six figures and that BGS would hire him in "10 seconds". Yet, Joe stated that he worked in customer service at BGS. Why would he turn down a job with the potential to make six figures to work in the customer service department? I'm not making fun, and I'm sure he enjoyed his job, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to turn down six figures when you're probably making a little bit more than minimum wage.

BG and one or two others on here have also mentioned his uncanny ability to pull gem cards out of common boxes at shows. It is my understanding that card graders use loupes and special lighting to identify imperfections. There has been no mention that he uses a loupe at card shows. I could believe that he can pick out cards that have the potential to grade high. But there is no way he could be certain with the naked eye. He would have to inspect the cards more closely under a loupe to know for sure. The defense that he has this great eye for grading just doesn't hold water. Even if he does have a great eye, he would still need special tools and lighting to identify every imperfection.

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

There are some simple measures that could be done right now that wouldn't be that complicated.



I'm thinking something that you could slide the cards under like a scanner. Not necessarily a scanner but a device with a camera that would bring up a magnified image on computer screen. Then use a simple pixel ruler to measure centering.



Seems like it would be much more comfortable then staring through a loupe all day.



The automated software could come later. A pixel page ruler would be far more accurate for measuring centering and looking for trimmed cards then a ruler though. That would be a good start imo.

Roger, I dont doubt for a second that alternatives and better workflows/processes exist. But the first thing that came to mind after reading your reply is "time"
Based on what we know, graders have literal seconds to assess a cards condition so taking a card, dropping into a scanner, scanning it, then using photoshop (for instance) to measure/review, etc.. is now taking several minutes. That of course would equate to less cards graded over time, potential proce increases, etc..

Theres an answer out there somewhere, for sure. It needs to be accurate, it needs to remove opinion based assessment, it needs to be super quick.
I'm sure I dont know exactly what that will be without some sort of propriatary software made for this expressed purpose.

I only hope that the two grading companies are trying to explore these avenues.

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[kyaa]

Originally Posted by robert0629

Even if he does have a great eye, he would still need special tools and lighting to identify every imperfection.

And--this is a key point--he'd need an uncanny ability to "discover" the most perfect specimens of cards in existence, that nobody else was lucky enough to find, over and over and over again.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Here's two more BGS orders from Joe:

2/19/19 (1 card order / 1 Black Label)
0011142977 2018 Topps Allen and Ginter Ronald Acuna Jr. RC BGS 10 Black Label

10/04/18 (6 card order/4 Black Labels)
0010851651 2018 Panini National Convention Rookie Memorabilia Escher Squares Lamar Jackson BGS 9 Mint
0010851652 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Gold LiAngelo Ball BGS 10 Black Label
0010851653 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Purple Derrius Guice BGS 10 Black Label
0010851654 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Purple Doyle Brunson BGS 10 Black Label
0010851655 2018 Panini National Convention Gold VIP Memorabilia 5 Deshaun Watson BGS 9.5 Gem
0010851656 2018 Leaf Originals Metal '48 Purple LiAngelo Ball BGS 10 Black Label


What I don't understand is the one card orders he has. Even with a BGS 9.5 Gem Mint, that Acuna only sells for $22 shipped. Between grading fees and shipping, he would have lost significant money if he did not score a Pristine 10 or better on it.

This is now the fourth grading order where he has submitted a one-card order with a card valued under $20 raw and hit a BGS 10 Black Label. That alone should call into question what is going on here.

Well done Dan! I really don’t see how any objective person could look at this and not at least acknowledge that more investigation should be done rather than dismiss this information. C’mon defenders- at least acknowledge that this is out of the ordinary and warrants additional investigation.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by robert0629

I've read this entire thread. Great job by the OP and the others on here who have brought this to light. I'm not saying I believe he's guilty of anything, but the statistical probability of him receiving this many black labels is concerning. I think it's at least enough to warrant an investigation from BGS.

After reading the thread a couple of things have stood out to me. Someone mentioned there may be junior or senior graders at BGS. If that is the case, then perhaps his inside guy is one of the junior graders. It's possible it has something to do with the declared value of the cards he submitting. Maybe that's why he mostly submits low-end cards. He mentioned that he does fast turnaround times. Maybe he knows when his guy will be working, and the likelihood that he will grade his order. Perhaps if he submitted cards with high declared values he wouldn't have the same chance of success, because his guy wouldn't get to grade those cards.

A couple of other things. BG mentioned, I believe in his first post in this thread, that the top graders make over six figures and that BGS would hire him in "10 seconds". Yet, Joe stated that he worked in customer service at BGS. Why would he turn down a job with the potential to make six figures to work in the customer service department? I'm not making fun, and I'm sure he enjoyed his job, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to turn down six figures when you're probably making a little bit more than minimum wage.

BG and one or two others on here have also mentioned his uncanny ability to pull gem cards out of common boxes at shows. It is my understanding that card graders use loupes and special lighting to identify imperfections. There has been no mention that he uses a loupe at card shows. I could believe that he can pick out cards that have the potential to grade high. But there is no way he could be certain with the naked eye. He would have to inspect the cards more closely under a loupe to know for sure. The defense that he has this great eye for grading just doesn't hold water. Even if he does have a great eye, he would still need special tools and lighting to identify every imperfection.

This is the most thoughtful post of the entire thread right here. These are the questions/concerns that need to be addressed. Thank you.