Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

It's a symbiotic relationship between card doctors and PSA. PSA needs their submissions and the card doctors need the red labels and slabs that give their customers (aka victims) a false sense of security. Watch the next earnings report for CU. I bet graded sports card submissions are way down. Not just because PSA has allegedly stopped accepting cards from PWCC but because of the chilling effect BODA has had on current and yet-to-be discovered card doctors.

Absent action by the feds, there's only one way to end systematic hobby corruption. Stop buying from every single card doctor and enabling auction service named by BODA. Without demand, the supply of altered cards will diminish.

From the 12-5 conference call.

Turning to our PSA and PSA/DNA division, this part of our business finished the quarter with another record top and bottom line performance. This marks the 10th consecutive time that PSA surpassed the Q1 figures from the previous year. The revenue figure of $8.1 million exceeded last year's record Q1 of $6.1 million, a year-over-year increase of $2 million. This was the first time that PSA reached or exceeded $8 million in any quarter.

PSA's strong performance included a new all-time quarterly high for units shipped at over 735,000 collectibles. This exceeded our prior record, which was set in Q4 of fiscal 2019, by roughly 50,000 units. Despite record output for the quarter, the incoming submissions outpaced our throughput. PSA ended the quarter with an unprecedented submission backlog, the largest in the division's history. The management team is focused on increasing operational capacity as we head further into the second quarter of the fiscal year. Customer demand has never been higher for our services, and customer satisfaction is our priority.

[pip]

Ok. But let's see what Q2 yields. I think there will be some surprises.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

Ok. But let's see what Q2 yields. I think there will be some surprises.

In my opinion, the only things that could slow down PSA would be a criminal prosecution or a real competitor, neither of which I foresee.

[scottagibson]

Originally Posted by pip

Ok. But let's see what Q2 yields. I think there will be some surprises.

You really are the one who is delusional pip.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Serious question, if the card was a PSA 8.5 Four months ago, why would it change into any other grade at any other time?

Grades give the illusion of a vacuum but cards don't exist in one. A card's corner may get it a grade of 9 but the corner itself is unique and not like every other corner that got every other card a 9.

It's easier if you think of grading in tenths. So a grader looks at a card and factors in whatever flaws it has and it may be an 8.8. Obviously, with something like that, on one day the grader might perceive it lower due to a number of human factors and give it an 8.5. On another day with another grader they may see it in a more positive light and give it a 9.

So the truth is that a card never really IS a specific grade. It's existing somewhere on a spectrum that then has to be perceived by the grader. Perhaps the grader just looked at five straight 8.3. Then that 8.8 might seem better than it is. But if a grader has been looking at a dozen straight 10s the 8.8 might look worse than it is.

By submitting to a third-party grader you acknowledge that you're asking for a person to give their opinion of a card's condition. The advantage to this is that their opinion is, for the most part, pretty darn consistent across the board and once given a grade, most people know what they should expect from that card. Unlike buying raw, where you're literally dealing with a new grading scale from every buyer and you have no idea what they consider EX-MT or VG or NM-MT and it's going to be a surprise when the card arrives.

Arthur

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Willikn

I'm not better. Maybe dumber? Just lazy?



The reality for me is that I don't care. I feel like a card in a 10 (and in most cases a 9) slab is what I see in the image. I buy the card because I want the card and know there won't be a surprise hidden by the image.



Example. My favorite Jordan 57 is in a PSA 8 slab from 4SC. Very clear reasons for the 8. Corner weakness on all four. Right edge weakness too. Centering barely 9 quality. I love it because the surface is so crystal clear. Perfect register, no print marks of any kind, and even the Fleer logo on the back looks perfect. Stupid nuance that means a lot to me. Honestly, I may have graded the thing as a NM. The right edge is that bad. They got an eight. I don't care at all. Maybe I should but I don't.

I think I’m reading here that you don’t care about the # on the label either way.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by itradeerrors

NO, it is just a test to see if PSA is consistent.

I'll save you some time and money - they aren't

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[pspa123]

LOL.

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Grades give the illusion of a vacuum but cards don't exist in one. A card's corner may get it a grade of 9 but the corner itself is unique and not like every other corner that got every other card a 9.

It's easier if you think of grading in tenths. So a grader looks at a card and factors in whatever flaws it has and it may be an 8.8. Obviously, with something like that, on one day the grader might perceive it lower due to a number of human factors and give it an 8.5. On another day with another grader they may see it in a more positive light and give it a 9.

So the truth is that a card never really IS a specific grade. It's existing somewhere on a spectrum that then has to be perceived by the grader. Perhaps the grader just looked at five straight 8.3. Then that 8.8 might seem better than it is. But if a grader has been looking at a dozen straight 10s the 8.8 might look worse than it is.

By submitting to a third-party grader you acknowledge that you're asking for a person to give their opinion of a card's condition. The advantage to this is that their opinion is, for the most part, pretty darn consistent across the board and once given a grade, most people know what they should expect from that card. Unlike buying raw, where you're literally dealing with a new grading scale from every buyer and you have no idea what they consider EX-MT or VG or NM-MT and it's going to be a surprise when the card arrives.

Arthur

My God... why would anyone want to endure this? The only reason they do regrades is to commandeer more of your money. Some random idiot assessing your cards (for a hefty fee) who knows far less than you, to begin with.

Add in the fact that he has a 30 second limit to make a determination, using their meaningless and ever-changeable self-concocted numbering system (which can include altered cards as well as originals).

Then you get the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing your concocted numbers are lower than the preferred submitters made up numbers.

And top it off by being charged a crapload of money for this completely unnecessary service... not to mention the outrageous time, effort and cost of shipping back and forth.

No thanks.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

I think I’m reading here that you don’t care about the # on the label either way.

I'm not a complete dolt. Maybe just half of one. I care enough. I like owning the higher grade. I like spending less on a 9 for modern. When I sell raw I do my level best to guess the grade.

I'm not one to complain because my eight should have been a nine. If I were so and so I would have gotten a nine! Both sentences very well may be true. I believe they are true in some cases. I accepted that likelihood with my first submission in 1998 and it has never bothered me.

I don't know if you are familiar so forgive me assuming that you aren't. The coin grading industry is crazier than cards. I know of a collector who six times received UNC 64 on his 16D dime. A tiny dime. The difference between a 64 and a 65 is completely subjective IMO, especially on a coin that small. Both are amazing, but one is about $10k more than the other. Try seven he got his 65 from our PSA (PCGS) friends.

In a world like this, losing sleep over that grade never made sense to me. Then again, I don't own an uncirculated 16d or the sports card equivalent. As HarryLime points out, cards aren't like coins. You don't have 21 different levels of an UNC coin. You are rounding down, or up, in nearly every case. While I suspect the best customers may get a hint of a bump, I don't believe that hint is a full grade. Ask a coin dealer the same question. Do big customers get a benefit bump from PCGS (Silver Towne) and to a man they will say yes.

Losing sleep over altered cards absolutely makes sense to me. The perversion of the Star Co basketball cards with a huge assist from BGS gutted me. PWCC's actions have gutted so many and I suspect the trickle down is coming. The "my nine should have been a ten" thing, man I wish those days were back.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

My God... why would anyone want to endure this? The only reason they do regrades is to commandeer more of your money. Some random idiot assessing your cards (for a hefty fee) who knows far less than you, to begin with.

Add in the fact that he has a 30 second limit to make a determination, using their meaningless and ever-changeable self-concocted numbering system (which can include altered cards as well as originals).

Then you get the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing your concocted numbers are lower than the preferred submitters made up numbers.

And top it off by being charged a crapload of money for this completely unnecessary service... not to mention the outrageous time, effort and cost of shipping back and forth.

No thanks.

Because no matter what a small group of people on a message board want, the entire market has adopted this system as the standard so by doing it you're able to increase the value of your cards for when you decide to sell them.

Why sell a card for $12 when I can spend $8 and turn it into a $120 card? The real question is: why wouldn't you do this? I admire the personal crusaders who operate at a loss to prove a point to themselves but the hobby is full of honest people who do honest dealings. It may not seem that way sometimes when we're just inundated with fraud day after day in these threads but the vast majority of people in this hobby are good people. They submit unaltered cards with hard-earned money and want to get an honest return on value. I don't see a problem with them doing that.

Arthur

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Because no matter what a small group of people on a message board want, the entire market has adopted this system as the standard so by doing it you're able to increase the value of your cards for when you decide to sell them.

Why sell a card for $12 when I can spend $8 and turn it into a $120 card? The real question is: why wouldn't you do this? I admire the personal crusaders who operate at a loss to prove a point to themselves but the hobby is full of honest people who do honest dealings. It may not seem that way sometimes when we're just inundated with fraud day after day in these threads but the vast majority of people in this hobby are good people. They submit unaltered cards with hard-earned money and want to get an honest return on value. I don't see a problem with them doing that.

Arthur

No argument that a large portion of the hobby has adopted this system as standard, but no way in hell can you say the entire market.
It took quite some time for a lot of collectors to turn towards grading and I would expect it will take some time before the trend wears out.
I personally believe the bottom will eventually fall out as more and more info becomes available and we see the results from the fraud shown here on this message board.
Some have already lost faith in the process as also shown here on this message board.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by Willikn

I'm not a complete dolt. Maybe just half of one. I care enough. I like owning the higher grade. I like spending less on a 9 for modern. When I sell raw I do my level best to guess the grade.

I'm not one to complain because my eight should have been a nine. If I were so and so I would have gotten a nine! Both sentences very well may be true. I believe they are true in some cases. I accepted that likelihood with my first submission in 1998 and it has never bothered me.

I don't know if you are familiar so forgive me assuming that you aren't. The coin grading industry is crazier than cards. I know of a collector who six times received UNC 64 on his 16D dime. A tiny dime. The difference between a 64 and a 65 is completely subjective IMO, especially on a coin that small. Both are amazing, but one is about $10k more than the other. Try seven he got his 65 from our PSA (PCGS) friends.

In a world like this, losing sleep over that grade never made sense to me. Then again, I don't own an uncirculated 16d or the sports card equivalent. As HarryLime points out, cards aren't like coins. You don't have 21 different levels of an UNC coin. You are rounding down, or up, in nearly every case. While I suspect the best customers may get a hint of a bump, I don't believe that hint is a full grade. Ask a coin dealer the same question. Do big customers get a benefit bump from PCGS (Silver Towne) and to a man they will say yes.

Losing sleep over altered cards absolutely makes sense to me. The perversion of the Star Co basketball cards with a huge assist from BGS gutted me. PWCC's actions have gutted so many and I suspect the trickle down is coming. The "my nine should have been a ten" thing, man I wish those days were back.

You may want to visit the OCSI/Cardbuyer thread. They regularly received 2 grade bumps with or without trimming with many of those being 8 to 10s.

OCSI was/is 15 miles from PSA's back door.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by corndog

You may want to visit the OCSI/Cardbuyer thread. They regularly received 2 grade bumps with or without trimming with many of those being 8 to 10s.

OCSI was/is 15 miles from PSA's back door.

At this point I'm willing to believe anything.

I may be a card doctor and don't realize it. I have popped chrome/Finest, wiped off finger prints, once what appeared to be a dried booger, and moved up two grades. My greatest move, from 7 to a 10, simply peeled a Finest card. I've moved one spot, never more than that, properly removing wax from Fleer stickers.

I'd like to think this explains a two grade move sans the card getting a hair cut. I suspect it doesn't.

I am not interested in defending, or educated enough to defend, anyone about anything. My having entered the conversation was in the hopes of learning that 4SC is clean.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

My guess is if Joe Average bought 100 random 4SC 10s, cracked and resubmitted, they would get no more than 40 10s, and maybe a lot less.

You and I have discussed this and 40 is absolutely not a realistic number. I would go with a whole lot less.

[ken161]

Originally Posted by Astros19

No argument that a large portion of the hobby has adopted this system as standard, but no way in hell can you say the entire market.
It took quite some time for a lot of collectors to turn towards grading and I would expect it will take some time before the trend wears out.
I personally believe the bottom will eventually fall out as more and more info becomes available and we see the results from the fraud shown here on this message board.
Some have already lost faith in the process as also shown here on this message board.

Very well stated. I know I am done with graded cards.

PSA needs to join ASA, SBC, CSA, PRO, USA, SCD, GAI, etc... on the rubble heap of hobby history.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

You and I have discussed this and 40 is absolutely not a realistic number. I would go with a whole lot less.

Well I was being generous today, but yeah.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

You and I have discussed this and 40 is absolutely not a realistic number. I would go with a whole lot less.

My best guess would be somewhere in the 5 to 10 range, depending on the grader.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

My best guess would be somewhere in the 5 to 10 range, depending on the grader.

Welcome to the PSA Animal Farm.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

My best guess would be somewhere in the 5 to 10 range, depending on the grader.

Zactly. And 0 out of 100 would honestly be in the realm of possibilities with such a small sample.

On one occasion (will never do it again) I made a submission of several thousand cards from the 60s, 70s and early 80s. Prior to submitting the cards they were seen by another dealer who was a higher volume submitter to PSA. He estimated I would get back roughly 20%-25% 10s, 40%-50% 9s with the balancing being 8s and 7s with a few 6s and 5s tossed in for the fun of it.

I would be embarrassed to admit the number of 10s, and even 9s, I got back. These were cards that had been pulled from a massive collection that sat in a closet since the early 80s and were never moved.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Zactly. And 0 out of 100 would honestly be in the realm of possibilities with such a small sample.

On one occasion (will never do it again) I made a submission of several thousand cards from the 60s, 70s and early 80s. Prior to submitting the cards they were seen by another dealer who was a higher volume submitter to PSA. He estimated I would get back roughly 20%-25% 10s, 40%-50% 9s with the balancing being 8s and 7s with a few 6s and 5s tossed in for the fun of it.

I would be embarrassed to admit the number of 10s, and even 9s, I got back. These were cards that had been pulled from a massive collection that sat in a closet since the early 80s and were never moved.

That doesn't surprise me in the least. You should have submitted through PWCC, Memory Lane, or 4SC. The entire system is weighted heavily against the average submitter. PSA is the most biased, least objective TPG. By far.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Willikn

I'm not a complete dolt. Maybe just half of one. I care enough. I like owning the higher grade. I like spending less on a 9 for modern. When I sell raw I do my level best to guess the grade.

I'm not one to complain because my eight should have been a nine. If I were so and so I would have gotten a nine! Both sentences very well may be true. I believe they are true in some cases. I accepted that likelihood with my first submission in 1998 and it has never bothered me.

I don't know if you are familiar so forgive me assuming that you aren't. The coin grading industry is crazier than cards. I know of a collector who six times received UNC 64 on his 16D dime. A tiny dime. The difference between a 64 and a 65 is completely subjective IMO, especially on a coin that small. Both are amazing, but one is about $10k more than the other. Try seven he got his 65 from our PSA (PCGS) friends.

In a world like this, losing sleep over that grade never made sense to me. Then again, I don't own an uncirculated 16d or the sports card equivalent. As HarryLime points out, cards aren't like coins. You don't have 21 different levels of an UNC coin. You are rounding down, or up, in nearly every case. While I suspect the best customers may get a hint of a bump, I don't believe that hint is a full grade. Ask a coin dealer the same question. Do big customers get a benefit bump from PCGS (Silver Towne) and to a man they will say yes.

Losing sleep over altered cards absolutely makes sense to me. The perversion of the Star Co basketball cards with a huge assist from BGS gutted me. PWCC's actions have gutted so many and I suspect the trickle down is coming. The "my nine should have been a ten" thing, man I wish those days were back.

I catch your meaning and agree. Given how everything today in the real world seems obsessed with analytics and metrics when it comes to money...especially big money, the efficacy and consistency of grading companies should be measured and managed by unbiased parties. It would not be a difficult undertaking, and although the results may not be surprising, people would know exactly how much they’re paying for subjectivity.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

That doesn't surprise me in the least. You should have submitted through PWCC, Memory Lane, or 4SC. The entire system is weighted heavily against the average submitter. PSA is the most biased, least objective TPG. By far.

I knew the decks were stacked but figured the estimate on the grade allocation was taking that into account...but the estimates were way off. Had I not shown the submission to someone whose eye I truly respected prior to submitting, I would have concluded I sucked at assessing cards. I am pretty sure I ended up with just over a dozen 10s, 25% were 9s and the bulk of the submission were 8s.

Since then I have actually turned down purchasing collections like the one I described above because the opportunity for cards to grade accurately and fairly at PSA is not available to me.

It is a real sh!t show. Guys like Maxwell and Huigens can push through sliced up garbage but the rest of us will get hammered when submitting original unaltered material.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

I knew the decks were stacked but figured the estimate on the grade allocation was taking that into account...but the estimates were way off. Had I not shown the submission to someone whose eye I truly respected prior to submitting, I would have concluded I sucked at assessing cards. I am pretty sure I ended up with just over a dozen 10s, 25% were 9s and the bulk of the submission were 8s.

Since then I have actually turned down purchasing collections like the one I described above because the opportunity for cards to grade accurately and fairly at PSA is not available to me.

It is a real sh!t show. Guys like Maxwell and Huigens can push through sliced up garbage but the rest of us will get hammered when submitting original unaltered material.

And what's even more maddening is that they will indignantly deny it.

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Because no matter what a small group of people on a message board want, the entire market has adopted this system as the standard so by doing it you're able to increase the value of your cards for when you decide to sell them.

Why sell a card for $12 when I can spend $8 and turn it into a $120 card? The real question is: why wouldn't you do this? I admire the personal crusaders who operate at a loss to prove a point to themselves but the hobby is full of honest people who do honest dealings. It may not seem that way sometimes when we're just inundated with fraud day after day in these threads but the vast majority of people in this hobby are good people. They submit unaltered cards with hard-earned money and want to get an honest return on value. I don't see a problem with them doing that.

Arthur

No problem at all, and I know I am the minority position. But I am surprised that a sharp guy like you can continue to love, support, create theories, and make excuses for PSA... especially given the fact that they've made Brent Huigens so wealthy and powerful in the industry. He could never have achieved elite status and wealth without the huge assist from PSA. The staggering number of sliced and diced cards that he's gotten authenticated through PSA is sickening to me, and as stated earlier, it's a completely symbiotic relationship.

But to your point, most people still seem to like professional grading. Nothing at all wrong with the honest folks who use it. I've never been in it for the money (just love of vintage cards), so perhaps that explains why we view TPG so differently. This is a forum in which differing viewpoints make it tick. If everyone agreed on every topic, it would be boring and pointless.

Anyway, there is room in the hobby for both graded cards and raw. I just have no desire to be put at a disadvantage by a corporation that favors certain submitters over others. Not a game I choose to play, but to each his own!