Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by pip

That's only because there is virtually no accountability within the industry and zero regulation/oversight of TPGs and auction houses. You are correct that there are many slab collectors who either don't care about or dismiss out of hand the widespread criminality that has taken root within the hobby. Values continue to increase as does investment and speculation. But just what is all this capitalization built upon?

To wit, I don't think it's Blowout/BODA that "misses the point." It's those who choose to abide in a lethargic stasis of ignorance and ambivalence.

I see significant change coming.

Nicely summed up Pip!

Rampant card doctoring (on a massive scale) + anonymous submissions, anonymous submission dates, anonymous TPG graders, anonymous consigners, anonymous bidders, anonymous high bidders, proprietary price guide calculations... What could possibly go wrong in the future?

[asujbl]

This thread will still be getting bumped in 2025 for “updates”

[joey_peapod]

Originally Posted by pip

That's only because there is virtually no accountability within the industry and zero regulation/oversight of TPGs and auction houses. You are correct that there are many slab collectors who either don't care about or dismiss out of hand the widespread criminality that has taken root within the hobby. Values continue to increase as does investment and speculation. But just what is all this capitalization built upon?

To wit, I don't think it's Blowout/BODA that "misses the point." It's those who choose to abide in a lethargic stasis of ignorance and ambivalence.

I see significant change coming.

Beyond trimming, I’m a guy that wants the card to match the grade. I’ve bought a ton of Psa 10s that i wouldn’t have even sent in.

While most seasoned people say but the card not the grade, I’ve Asked a few guys and most answers are they are buying the grade not the card.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

Beyond trimming, I’m a guy that wants the card to match the grade. I’ve bought a ton of Psa 10s that i wouldn’t have even sent in.

While most seasoned people say but the card not the grade, I’ve Asked a few guys and most answers are they are buying the grade not the card.

Buying the PSA 10 (PSA submission kickback to dealer) is what it appears to me in many cases... Then the dealer uses the money to fund more submissions... Win/Win for PSA and dealers while they work together to stick it to the buyer that loves the subject label.

[ken161]

Below is an article from July 9, 2020 about graded cards in Sports Collectors Digest. Generally, a glowing article about the benefits of card grading from the Voice of the Hobby. Other than a cryptic comment at the end about "issues & concerns" there is no mention of the massive fraud and card doctoring unearthed in the last 18 months on these boards.

To the novice breaking into the hobby, there was no sort of warning or heads-up concerning the dozen or so high-profile card doctors unmasked. Talk about shoddy journalism.


https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...sgc-dominating

[pip]

Originally Posted by ken161

Below is an article from July 9, 2020 about graded cards in Sports Collectors Digest. Generally, a glowing article about the benefits of card grading from the Voice of the Hobby. Other than a cryptic comment at the end about "issues & concerns" there is no mention of the massive fraud and card doctoring unearthed in the last 18 months on these boards.

To the novice breaking into the hobby, there was no sort of warning or heads-up concerning the dozen or so high-profile card doctors unmasked. Talk about shoddy journalism.


https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...sgc-dominating

From the article:

When Murray saw an advertisement in the Dallas Morning News in 2000 stating that Beckett was looking for graders, he was excited for a shot to enter the industry. He stopped into Dallas-based Beckett, took a grading test, and as he puts it, “absolutely bombed it.”

Some things never change.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by ken161

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/c...sgc-dominating

"Prior to the advent of grading, trimming, altering and faking cards were prevalent, most prolifically in the late 1990s."

PSA pushes this false marketing projection that it was the "Wild West" of trimming/altering BEFORE they "fixed" the problem... I have no doubt there are far more vintage altered cards in PSA slabs with numerical grades today than there were in the late 1990's... Today the slabs give a false sense of security enabling MORE fraud.

[auburn35]

As expected, Collectors Universe filed their motion to dismiss, following the amended complaint. Not much new here (similar objections from the previous motions) but I thought it was humorous that PSA is asking for Savoy to identify all the certification numbers for the altered PSA cards in question.
That request, is exactly what people are expecting PSA to provide, as they have the submission/customer history to publicly nullify graded cards submitted from known trimmers.



Oddly, it was PSA, not Savoy, who included the first images of the cards in question to the court. Savoy provided PSA with the scans but for some reason din't use them in any of his complaints.

Here's the cards that are Savoy believes to be altered. Not the best scans and only the Henderson is presented with both front and back images.

[pspa123]

A Henderson RC in an 8 is the centerpiece of this lawsuit? Oy.

[auburn35]

Both PWCC and CU/PSA filed another round of motions yesterday. Even with Savoy dropping all the federal charges in their amended complaint, PSA is attempting to keep the case in Federal court.

Not much new information but I thought these were fairly interesting sections.

[pspa123]

So PSA terminates permanently its relationship with all card doctors. Oh, OK, if they say so.

The notion that only expensive cards get altered is both wrong and disingenuous, but in any event I am doubtful that Savoy has cured the defects in his pleading. So much, I think, for now anyway, for the civil litigation angle.

[superdan49]

If Savoy is to be believed, it means that somebody spent hours upon hours undertaking tense, meticulous, and delicate work, involving magnifying glasses, tiny brushes, and other specialized instruments to make minute alterations to a card.

I'm pretty sure most of the guys outed in these threads are quickly chopping cards using a simple commercial paper cutter.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I'm pretty sure most of the guys outed in these threads are quickly chopping cards using a simple commercial paper cutter.

But the notion of a master craftsman at work is so romantic.

[irfuji]

Originally Posted by pspa123

So PSA terminates permanently its relationship with all card doctors. Oh, OK, if they say so.

The notion that only expensive cards get altered is both wrong and disingenuous, but in any event I am doubtful that Savoy has cured the defects in his pleading. So much, I think, for now anyway, for the civil litigation angle.

I don't think anything changes after this lawsuit. PSA has, in my opinion, effectively argued that no damages have been proven. Its the old "no harm no foul" argument unfortunately.

At the moment, the only damage they might have suffered is to their reputation. But given the lack of other options and the continued use of their services, it's not exactly a problem for them.

The only benefit I can see from this lawsuit is that there is a clear road map for someone who actually does incur damages to be compensated from PSA. They can use a lot of PSA's own language against them; i.e. the notes about PSA being willing to compensate someone.

The other unfortunate aspect of this, is that nothing will change even if PSA has to compensate someone. They, like all businesses, have crafted an "out" to prevent lawsuits. If you have damages, you can make a claim. Even on a high dollar card, the cost to pay the damages is going to be less than a class action. So basically, as long as the number of times PSA misses/ignores a trimmed/fake/altered card AND the damages they have to pay out is less than having to make any actual changes, they will continue to do business as usual.

[pspa123]

The bottom line is that it's going to be very hard for anyone (in my opinion) even if they had a better individual claim than Savoy to meet the rigorous requirements to certify a Rule 23 damages class, and there just aren't that many people who are going to spend the resources to sue PSA in California if PSA wrongly rejects their guarantee claim (which is within its control). And while proving such a claim may look easy on a message board, it may be less so in a courtroom. So I am not optimistic our issues are going to be fixed via civil litigation.

[pip]

If Savoy is to be believed, it means that somebody spent hours upon hours undertaking tense, meticulous, and delicate work, involving magnifying glasses, tiny brushes, and other specialized instruments to make minute alterations to a card.

This is, by far, the most entertaining part. I especially like the "tiny brushes" detail, as if there are tiny elfin craftsmen working with their diminutive tools, including, of course, tiny brushes. Lol.

More like Evan Mathis with his $7.99 paper cutter.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by pspa123

So PSA terminates permanently its relationship with all card doctors. Oh, OK, if they say so.

The paragraph also fails to mention that had the 1980 Rickey Henderson been altered enough to achieve a PSA 10 grade, it would have been valued at $30,000. Not every attempted alteration actually leads to the wished upon grade. So yes, fraudsters do trim low value cards, and specifically that card.

[pip]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

The paragraph also fails to mention that had the 1980 Rickey Henderson been altered enough to achieve a PSA 10 grade, it would have been valued at $30,000. Not every attempted alteration actually leads to the wished upon grade. So yes, fraudsters do trim low value cards, and specifically that card.

Correct. There are a ton of 1970s and 80s rookie cards that are trimmed/altered. For some cards, like Henderson, there's likely a high percentage of PSA 10s that have been altered and an even greater number of BVG 9.5s and 10s.

[pspa123]

There are 24 PSA 10s (compared to almost 2000 9s). I wonder how many have been submitted by people we know and love. And how many would regrade a 10, with the grader blinded to the identity of the submitter.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by pspa123

There are 24 PSA 10s (compared to almost 2000 9s). I wonder how many have been submitted by people we know and love. And how many would regrade a 10, with the grader blinded to the identity of the submitter.

Or how many 9s would be 10s if the identity of the player on the card was obscured... PSA is regularly accused of withholding 10s on this card to inflate the market value.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Or how many 9s would be 10s if the identity of the player on the card was obscured... PSA is regularly accused of withholding 10s on this card to inflate the market value.

Ah, yes, you’re referring to PSA’s proprietary and highly secretive grading methodology. Their highly prized and magical “secret sauce” if you will.

Too bad we already know the secret sauce is just ketchup and thousand island dressing.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Or how many 9s would be 10s if the identity of the player on the card was obscured... PSA is regularly accused of withholding 10s on this card to inflate the market value.

There are massive numbers of 1980 Topps and the Henderson doesn't seem particularly difficult to find well centered. Is the issue minor print stuff in the background, or something else?

[mjohnatgt]

Yeah, fisheyes/print dots, poor inking, some snow, some tilt. But it's not a terrible card to get a 9 on, like the 1976 George Brett.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pspa123

There are massive numbers of 1980 Topps and the Henderson doesn't seem particularly difficult to find well centered. Is the issue minor print stuff in the background, or something else?

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Yeah, fisheyes/print dots, poor inking, some snow, some tilt. But it's not a terrible card to get a 9 on, like the 1976 George Brett.

[pip]

Erudite post from across the street on the subject of PSA's culpability and suggestion that they are merely offering an "opinion." Perhaps the class action suit should have included the argument that PSA should have known better and was grading copious amounts of vintage cards that could not possibly exist....all in order to fuel the demand from its registry, the lifeblood of its existence.