Joey Votto... thoughts? HOF? super-underrated?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by BigSlim16

Can we get some Votto cards posted in this thread? As much as I love seeing the same HOF pro/con arguments over and over, it might be nice to mix in some cards too

Sure.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I personally think you are putting too much stock in historical perspectives of the writers. The landscape in evaluating baseball players has changed drastically in the last 20 years alone, as have the writers themselves. I no longer see much value in such a comparison.

I’m really not. You are conflating the evolution in evaluating players with the BBWAA becoming more progressive in their evaluations. While there are indeed individual members who utilize advanced metrics, the BBWAA as a group doesn’t change as quickly as you think. There have been constant advances in analytics throughout history and the voting patterns remain largely the same. The only changes have been when new positions are introduced (closer and DH) and have to be dealt with. But the fact is, it is actually more difficult to get into the Hall of Fame through the BBWAA than it has ever been.

In 1960 there were 16 major league teams. Today there are nearly twice as many. That means you have nearly twice as many players meeting Hall of Fame standards than we did back then. But that’s not what’s been getting inducted.

You may not see value and you may think the BBWAA has changed in what they like, but it’s not been reflected in the voting. The standards do evolve, but they evolve very slowly. They just don’t tend to like his type.

Besides all of that, Berkman’s vote was just 4 years ago. Things certainly ain’t changed much in 4 years.

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

I’m really not. You are conflating the evolution in evaluating players with the BBWAA becoming more progressive in their evaluations. While there are indeed individual members who utilize advanced metrics, the BBWAA as a group doesn’t change as quickly as you think. There have been constant advances in analytics throughout history and the voting patterns remain largely the same. The only changes have been when new positions are introduced (closer and DH) and have to be dealt with. But the fact is, it is actually more difficult to get into the Hall of Fame through the BBWAA than it has ever been.

In 1960 there were 16 major league teams. Today there are nearly twice as many. That means you have nearly twice as many players meeting Hall of Fame standards than we did back then. But that’s not what’s been getting inducted.

You may not see value and you may think the BBWAA has changed in what they like, but it’s not been reflected in the voting. The standards do evolve, but they evolve very slowly. They just don’t tend to like his type.

Besides all of that, Berkman’s vote was just 4 years ago. Things certainly ain’t changed much in 4 years.

I believe you are correct. There are not only twice as many players available to be voted for but twice as many executives/umpires/etc. Many members perceive that the voting is just for the top players and that is untrue.

Those that want to discuss Votto going in, shy away from his historical meltdown in the post season. The same meltdown as Todd Helton had with his career. The voters know Votto came up small when the stage became huge.

[lawrencedc1]

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[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

I’m really not. You are conflating the evolution in evaluating players with the BBWAA becoming more progressive in their evaluations. While there are indeed individual members who utilize advanced metrics, the BBWAA as a group doesn’t change as quickly as you think. There have been constant advances in analytics throughout history and the voting patterns remain largely the same. The only changes have been when new positions are introduced (closer and DH) and have to be dealt with. But the fact is, it is actually more difficult to get into the Hall of Fame through the BBWAA than it has ever been.



In 1960 there were 16 major league teams. Today there are nearly twice as many. That means you have nearly twice as many players meeting Hall of Fame standards than we did back then. But that’s not what’s been getting inducted.



You may not see value and you may think the BBWAA has changed in what they like, but it’s not been reflected in the voting. The standards do evolve, but they evolve very slowly. They just don’t tend to like his type.



Besides all of that, Berkman’s vote was just 4 years ago. Things certainly ain’t changed much in 4 years.

That's fine. We won't know if I'm right for a few years. But I wholeheartedly believe the shift in perception, even among writers, is happening as we speak, and happening at a much more rapid pace than in the past. But it's happening so fast that it's hard to see it in the history. And so fast that 4 years ago was a long time.

Again, that's my perception. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. But when Votto gets in on the first 3 ballots, I'll look you up.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That's fine. We won't know if I'm right for a few years. But I wholeheartedly believe the shift in perception, even among writers, is happening as we speak, and happening at a much more rapid pace than in the past. But it's happening so fast that it's hard to see it in the history. And so fast that 4 years ago was a long time.

Again, that's my perception. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see. But when Votto gets in on the first 3 ballots, I'll look you up.

Fair enough. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

I’m really not. You are conflating the evolution in evaluating players with the BBWAA becoming more progressive in their evaluations. While there are indeed individual members who utilize advanced metrics, the BBWAA as a group doesn’t change as quickly as you think. There have been constant advances in analytics throughout history and the voting patterns remain largely the same. The only changes have been when new positions are introduced (closer and DH) and have to be dealt with. But the fact is, it is actually more difficult to get into the Hall of Fame through the BBWAA than it has ever been.

In 1960 there were 16 major league teams. Today there are nearly twice as many. That means you have nearly twice as many players meeting Hall of Fame standards than we did back then. But that’s not what’s been getting inducted.

You may not see value and you may think the BBWAA has changed in what they like, but it’s not been reflected in the voting. The standards do evolve, but they evolve very slowly. They just don’t tend to like his type.

Besides all of that, Berkman’s vote was just 4 years ago. Things certainly ain’t changed much in 4 years.

Berkman's candidacy got overshadowed by the steroid-era candidates clogging up the ballot, just like Fred McGriff. Voters only had 10 votes and there were many compelling candidates on the ballot with Berkman:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2019.shtml

Here are the most noteworthy that got more votes than Berkman:
1. Rivera
2. Halladay
3. E. Martinez
4. Mussina
5. Schilling
6. Clemens
7. Bonds
8. Walker
9. Vizquel
10. McGriff
11. M. Ramirez
12. Kent
13. Rolen
14. Wagner
15. Helton
16. Sheffield
17. Pettitte
18. Sosa
19. A. Jones

Holy crap -- that is a stacked ballot.

There's also this:

Berkman’s off-field work once his career was over could have impacted his popularity, not unlike Hall of Fame candidate Curt Schilling. In September 2015, Berkman spoke for a group -- Campaign for Houston -- opposed to a ballot initiative in Houston known as the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance, which would have provided equal protection for transgender people in public bathrooms. Berkman rightly received criticism at the time. He appeared as a guest on a Houston radio station a month later and said, “To me, tolerance is the virtue that’s killing this country. We’re tolerant of everything. You know, everything is okay, and as long as you want to do it and as long as it feels good to you, then it’s perfectly acceptable to do it. Those are the kinds of things that lead you down a slippery slope and you’ll get in trouble in a hurry.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/l...of-fame-ballot

On a related note, ask me why I think Jeff Kent didn't get more public support for the Hall of Fame, even though he is the all-time leader in HR at 2B, won an MVP, was selected to 5 All Stars and was the best 2B in MLB during his prime.

Also, it's amazing that you doggedly say the Hall of Fame doesn't like Votto's type when Helton is only a few percentage points from getting inducted. Times have clearly changed. Helton would not have been inducted via the ballot 20 years ago. His offensive numbers are underwhelming relative to other Hall of Fame 1B. He's 26th in home runs among 1B, even though he played half his games in Coors -- 5 years pre-humidor.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Berkman's candidacy got overshadowed by the steroid-era candidates clogging up the ballot, just like Fred McGriff. Voters only had 10 votes and there were many compelling candidates on the ballot with Berkman:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2019.shtml

Here are the most noteworthy that got more votes than Berkman:
1. Rivera
2. Halladay
3. E. Martinez
4. Mussina
5. Schilling
6. Clemens
7. Bonds
8. Walker
9. Vizquel
10. McGriff
11. M. Ramirez
12. Kent
13. Rolen
14. Wagner
15. Helton
16. Sheffield
17. Pettitte
18. Sosa
19. A. Jones

Holy crap -- that is a stacked ballot.

There's also this:

https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/l...of-fame-ballot

On a related note, ask me why I think Jeff Kent didn't get more public support for the Hall of Fame, even though he is the all-time leader in HR at 2B, won an MVP, was selected to 5 All Stars and was the best 2B in MLB during his prime.

Also, it's amazing that you doggedly say the Hall of Fame doesn't like Votto's type when Helton is only a few percentage points from getting inducted. Times have clearly changed. Helton would not have been inducted via the ballot 20 years ago. His offensive numbers are underwhelming relative to other Hall of Fame 1B. He's 26th in home runs among 1B, even though he played half his games in Coors -- 5 years pre-humidor.

Helton’s career is more in line with what the Hall voters like: .300 hitter, 5 of those “Hall of Fame seasons” (.300, 30 HRs, 100 RBIs), 2,500+ Hits, he’s in the top 20 all-time in doubles, and top 25 all-time in OPS. Ascending the all-time leader boards usually gets the BBWAA’s attention.

He’s also evidence that the BBWAA still largely likes what they’ve always liked. On the Hall of Fame monitor he scores a 175. That means he’s a very likely HOFer. By comparison, Berkman’s at 98; a borderline candidate.

[peterose4hof]

2 HOFers for the price of one?

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[Quake]

Some Votto red /5 variations to help with the line of pictures!

[BigSlim16]

I really need to get my hands on a 2002 BC refractor. The shine looks great online, so I can’t even imagine what it looks like in person

[OhioLawyerF5]

Not the best grade, but these papers are tough to grade. Only 21 9s and no 10s.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by Quake

Some Votto red /5 variations to help with the line of pictures!

Beautiful reds!

This one is #10/10

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[cardozo]

Not a Reds fan but pulled this in a break the other day, figured you all might appreciate it .




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[Jsquared123]

Originally Posted by cardozo

Not a Reds fan but pulled this in a break the other day, figured you all might appreciate it .




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That's an unreal hit. Would be interested if moving!

[fidrych]

50 year fan of the team, so yes a homer. Stream most if not all the games.

I can't say whether the numbers warrant the induction, but I do know this. I am confident his speech will be worth hearing. That I will not miss. Nor should anyone else for that matter.

[cardozo]

Originally Posted by Jsquared123

That's an unreal hit. Would be interested if moving!

I’m definitely selling but no clue what to ask so auction might be best.

Thanks

[Stifle]

Seems like a great guy! Not a first ballot but if Joe Mauer can make it in and do it that quickly, then Joey has more than a punchers chance. Mauer and Votto were equally invisible in the Post Season.

[Zauron]

I feel like Votto will get in, but he sure isn't getting in soon. I feel he's a very similar candidate like Helton, and Helton took a long time to get in, what 6 ballots?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by cardozo

Not a Reds fan but pulled this in a break the other day, figured you all might appreciate it .




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Cool card! I like the relic cards that have an auto on the relic.

[barry6124]

Figured I'd share my favorite Joey Votto Stats and they revolve around RISP, because the biggest knock i hear all the time is Votto walked too much.

Votto's career slash line with RISP is .322/.471/.569

His OPS with RISP is 10th all-time. TENTH.

But wait, he walked too much with RISP. Here is the list all time of BB/PA with RISP

1) Barry Bonds
2) Ted Williams
3) Babe Ruth
4) Mickey Mantle
5) Joey Votto

Weird, haven't hear that complaint about the other guys on this list.


His career slugging with RISP is 16th ALL TIME. Higher than Mantle, Musial, Mays, Griffey, Miggy, Arod and on and on.

[davidantx]

Really good player, however sadly not a HOFer imho.

[Handsome Wes]

Guys, Joey Votto is going to go into the Hall of Fame, and he's going to go in on the first ballot. He's not a slam dunk "he should be unanimous" guy, and he'll (likely) hit the ballot the same year as Miguel Cabrera (who is a slam dunk HOFer). But Votto is going to have a plaque in Cooperstown.

[rms13]

If Helton is in than Votto will get in.

[MoreToppsPlease]

He’s getting in on his peak WAR, because he’s avoided controversy…and because people are talking about him a lot - aka the “fame” component of HoF. Heck, this is post #1000 in this thread and he’s not the prospect du jour.