2023-24 NBA Season Thread

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I will defend his honor until the end of time. Log off

Hard pass

Magic Johnson is embarrassed of him

He’s the Mel Tucker of Basketball

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Who was lebrons elite defender during the heat years? Lebron was leading the team in scoring and racking up all defensive team selections.

Pretty much none of lebrons teams have fit that mold because… LeBron

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

He has a DPOY award and DPOY 1st and 2nd teams because he is an elite elite defensive player, it has NOTHING to do with the Warriors winning. Come on this is terrible.

You've been making these kind of posts for almost a decade.

I’m sure he would have the same resume not including rings if he was in charlotte for his career.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

I’m sure he would have the same resume not including rings if he was in charlotte for his career.

Alex Caruso and Dillon Brooks made all-defensive 1st and 2nd teams this year. Yea, I think he'd be just fine.

Do you actually believe the drivel you posted?

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Alex Caruso and Dillon Brooks made all-defensive 1st and 2nd teams this year. Yea, I think he'd be just fine.

Do you actually believe the drivel you posted?

Grizzlies were second in the west. I didn’t say Greene wouldn’t have any defensive team selections. Take your emotion out of this and have a reasonable debate.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Pretty much none of lebrons teams have fit that mold because… LeBron

I would say Shane Battier. His addition was instrumental as that last key piece for a chip.
Asujubl would love Draymond if he were on the Cavs. He is easy to hate with all his antics for sure. He is also one of the smartest players in the league. Warriors don't win the chips without him.

I am curious to see what advanced metrics say about Ben Wallace and those Piston teams? Does Wallace have a low VORP because he didn't score enough even though he was the cog that ran that team?

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I would say Shane Battier. His addition was instrumental as that last key piece for a chip.
Asujubl would love Draymond if he were on the Cavs. He is easy to hate with all his antics for sure. He is also one of the smartest players in the league. Warriors don't win the chips without him.

I am curious to see what advanced metrics say about Ben Wallace and those Piston teams? Does Wallace have a low VORP because he didn't score enough even though he was the cog that ran that team?

jcard said elite defender. battier had 2 2nd team selections several years before coming to the heat and he only played an average of 23 minutes a game mainly coming off the bench with the heat. he was a good piece for the heat but hes not the type of player jcard was referring to. thats why i found it odd he pointed out mj (when he had pippen earning all defensive teams when the bulls started winning titles as was jordan mind you) but only pointed out lebron in 2016. its safe to say lebron had ad as the best defender on the team when he won his fourth with the lakers.

[Kobefan]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I would say Shane Battier. His addition was instrumental as that last key piece for a chip.
Asujubl would love Draymond if he were on the Cavs. He is easy to hate with all his antics for sure. He is also one of the smartest players in the league. Warriors don't win the chips without him.

I am curious to see what advanced metrics say about Ben Wallace and those Piston teams? Does Wallace have a low VORP because he didn't score enough even though he was the cog that ran that team?

You think the two title years with Curry, KD, and Klay won't be enough if Draymond wasn't there?

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Grizzlies were second in the west. I didn’t say Greene wouldn’t have any defensive team selections. Take your emotion out of this and have a reasonable debate.

I think it's dumb to believe Draymond's defensive accolades are from being on winning teams. He's got the accolades because he's been a top 5 defensive player in the league since being a full-time starter.

You guys forget, he's changed the way teams play the game and look for guys. Small ball 5's weren't a thing before Draymond was doing it for the Warriors. Just like Steph changed the way teams play, so did Draymond. Draymond is the reason guys like Roy Hibbert fell right out of the league.

[Tallboy]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

He can be one of the best defensive players ever and still have valid critiques of it being impossible to ever be a #1 on a team.

Both are true. He has had a fantastic career that nobody could have ever predicted, but everyone knows he wouldn't have had that hall of fame career if he didn't play with Steph and Klay.

I saw the Draymond conversation and tracked back to see what people said. Wasn't sure where to break in, but your post seemed as good of a place as any because:

I agree with everything you say, but quibble with the last part on one point that's implied by your post:

Klay wasn't the #2 for this core, Draymond was.

I think people tend to think that because stars are typically scorers and on the Warriors everyone's always talked about the Splash Brothers which implies that Klay is at least near the level of Steph, that Draymond should be placed below Klay on a list of top, HOF-worthy players, but I would strongly disagree because that's not what the data tells me at all.

I'll certainly say that (healthy) Klay has always been a better offensive player than Dray, but Dray - to the shock of all of us - has been the top defensive player of this era of the NBA, and that's huge. Klay in his prime was a great man defender, but Dray is the middle linebacker, aka defensive quarterback, that the defense crystalized around.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by Tallboy

I saw the Draymond conversation and tracked back to see what people said. Wasn't sure where to break in, but your post seemed as good of a place as any because:

I agree with everything you say, but quibble with the last part on one point that's implied by your post:

Klay wasn't the #2 for this core, Draymond was.

I think people tend to think that because stars are typically scorers and on the Warriors everyone's always talked about the Splash Brothers which implies that Klay is at least near the level of Steph, that Draymond should be placed below Klay on a list of top, HOF-worthy players, but I would strongly disagree because that's not what the data tells me at all.

I'll certainly say that (healthy) Klay has always been a better offensive player than Dray, but Dray - to the shock of all of us - has been the top defensive player of this era of the NBA, and that's huge. Klay in his prime was a great man defender, but Dray is the middle linebacker, aka defensive quarterback, that the defense crystalized around.

If someone wants to say Draymond was the #2 of this core, I'm not going to argue with them because I think there is a case to be made for both. Both have heavily benefited from playing with Steph and I think if either of them were drafted somewhere else, they wouldn't have the accolades or notoriety that they do now.

My main point with the last part was that with Draymond's skillset, he needs elite (not just good) shooters around him. Steph and Klay require so much defensive attention that it has made Draymond's life pretty easy as the playmaker on offense and he wouldn't have that if he were somewhere else because Steph and Klay are pretty widely considered the best shooting backcourt of all time.

Steph, Klay, and Draymond are just the perfect combination with each of their skillsets and personalities. I think they all needed eachother to be as successful as what they have been the past 10 years.

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I think it's dumb to believe Draymond's defensive accolades are from being on winning teams. He's got the accolades because he's been a top 5 defensive player in the league since being a full-time starter.

You guys forget, he's changed the way teams play the game and look for guys. Small ball 5's weren't a thing before Draymond was doing it for the Warriors. Just like Steph changed the way teams play, so did Draymond. Draymond is the reason guys like Roy Hibbert fell right out of the league.

draymond has changed the game now, wow. so you believe hes that good of a player that if he was on any other team, he would have had the same personal success and the teams would have ran the same way the warriors have been able to do with steph/klay and their custom fit role players?

thats fine to think my opinion is dumb, thats your opinion. im sure others see being a fan of draymond and the type of person he is as being dumb as well. leaked junk pic, intentionally kicking players, open drama with kd and pushing him away, punching a teammate while you know cameras are recording you, continually being one of the league leaders in techs despite getting the longest rope, etc.

but no i dont think he would stand out if he was on 30 win teams missing the playoffs every year. i mean due to skill, his immature antics would obviously get him some play on espn. draymond is a solid role player and the warriors have benefited from having him but draymond has benefited more from being on the warriors. he has been a great defender and playmaker. his defense just wouldnt shine as bright being out of the spotlight of golden state and his playmaking wouldnt be as good without the players the warriors have had.

[asujbl]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

draymond has changed the game now, wow. so you believe hes that good of a player that if he was on any other team, he would have had the same personal success and the teams would have ran the same way the warriors have been able to do with steph/klay and their custom fit role players?

thats fine to think my opinion is dumb, thats your opinion. im sure others see being a fan of draymond and the type of person he is as being dumb as well. leaked junk pic, intentionally kicking players, open drama with kd and pushing him away, punching a teammate while you know cameras are recording you, continually being one of the league leaders in techs despite getting the longest rope, etc.

but no i dont think he would stand out if he was on 30 win teams missing the playoffs every year. i mean due to skill, his immature antics would obviously get him some play on espn. draymond is a solid role player and the warriors have benefited from having him but draymond has benefited more from being on the warriors. he has been a great defender and playmaker. his defense just wouldnt shine as bright being out of the spotlight of golden state and his playmaking wouldnt be as good without the players the warriors have had.

Draymond sucks. Don’t worry about JV. He thinks Mel Tucker is worth 9.5 million a year to get win 6 games and get throttled by any decent team

He’s biased

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

draymond has changed the game now, wow. so you believe hes that good of a player that if he was on any other team, he would have had the same personal success and the teams would have ran the same way the warriors have been able to do with steph/klay and their custom fit role players?

thats fine to think my opinion is dumb, thats your opinion. im sure others see being a fan of draymond and the type of person he is as being dumb as well. leaked junk pic, intentionally kicking players, open drama with kd and pushing him away, punching a teammate while you know cameras are recording you, continually being one of the league leaders in techs despite getting the longest rope, etc.

but no i dont think he would stand out if he was on 30 win teams missing the playoffs every year. i mean due to skill, his immature antics would obviously get him some play on espn. draymond is a solid role player and the warriors have benefited from having him but draymond has benefited more from being on the warriors. he has been a great defender and playmaker. his defense just wouldnt shine as bright being out of the spotlight of golden state and his playmaking wouldnt be as good without the players the warriors have had.

Draymond has changed the way teams play, yea. Did teams play super small before him? After Draymond emerged in the Warriors 1st title run everyone started trying to find 4s and 5s that can shoot 3's and create offense. It's not an insane thing to say that. Roy Hibbert, David Lee, that proto type went away really quick because those guys couldn't stay on the court if a guy like Draymond was out there.

Do you guys forget how insane people thought it was for the Warriors to have Dray at center originally? But they blitzed teams because he a smaller guy can/could guard traditional centers and they couldn't guard on the other end. The original death lineup: Curry/Klay/Barnes/Iguodala/Green. That changed the game.

Originally Posted by asujbl

Draymond sucks. Don’t worry about JV. He thinks Mel Tucker is worth 9.5 million a year to get win 6 games and get throttled by any decent team

He’s biased

Troll effort is strong.

[21Pittsburgh58]

There is nothing elite about Draymond.

Because of the star players around him, it allowed him to focus on one thing: Defense. He had ZERO pressure on him to be an offensive player.

How did Draymond do when GS was without their true stars and he had to lead them? They sucked donkey nuts.

When does Draymond's play get him on ESPN? VERY rarely for such an 'elite' player.

When does Draymond get ESPN airtime? When he's kicked a dick. Punched a teammate in the mouth. Trash talking and generally acting like an a$$h*le to fans (he's so easy to get angry). Generally causing havoc where skill is not actually needed.

You can defend his 'honor' (as if that douche has any) all you want. You'll get the last laugh when he's inducted in to the basketball Hall of Fame. It's a joke that he will, but it'll happen. If he wasn't an MSU alumni (trash school), you wouldn't even care that he's alive, much less successful (thanks to simpy good at playing, and being, a 'D'.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Draymond has changed the way teams play, yea. Did teams play super small before him? After Draymond emerged in the Warriors 1st title run everyone started trying to find 4s and 5s that can shoot 3's and create offense. It's not an insane thing to say that. Roy Hibbert, David Lee, that proto type went away really quick because those guys couldn't stay on the court if a guy like Draymond was out there.

Do you guys forget how insane people thought it was for the Warriors to have Dray at center originally? But they blitzed teams because he a smaller guy can/could guard traditional centers and they couldn't guard on the other end. The original death lineup: Curry/Klay/Barnes/Iguodala/Green. That changed the game.



Troll effort is strong.

You can't actually believe they started small ball?

The 90s Bulls went small with Rodman and Kukoc all the time. Plenty of teams did it.

[Nomad]

No one even called me on saying Draymond and KD relative prices might be called into question. wild.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by 21Pittsburgh58

There is nothing elite about Draymond.

Because of the star players around him, it allowed him to focus on one thing: Defense. He had ZERO pressure on him to be an offensive player.

How did Draymond do when GS was without their true stars and he had to lead them? They sucked donkey nuts.

When does Draymond's play get him on ESPN? VERY rarely for such an 'elite' player.

When does Draymond get ESPN airtime? When he's kicked a dick. Punched a teammate in the mouth. Trash talking and generally acting like an a$$h*le to fans (he's so easy to get angry). Generally causing havoc where skill is not actually needed.

You can defend his 'honor' (as if that douche has any) all you want. You'll get the last laugh when he's inducted in to the basketball Hall of Fame. It's a joke that he will, but it'll happen. If he wasn't an MSU alumni (trash school), you wouldn't even care that he's alive, much less successful (thanks to simpy good at playing, and being, a 'D'.

Draymond is the Dennis Rodman of his era. The Bulls would not have won without MJ and Pippen, but Rodman was vital to their 3-peat. Likewise, the Warriors would not have won without Curry or Klay, but Draymond was crucial to their dynasty.

Draymond also often takes the ball up court and helps to facilitate the offense. He's not a non-factor on offense.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by 21Pittsburgh58

There is nothing elite about Draymond.

Because of the star players around him, it allowed him to focus on one thing: Defense. He had ZERO pressure on him to be an offensive player.

How did Draymond do when GS was without their true stars and he had to lead them? They sucked donkey nuts.

When does Draymond's play get him on ESPN? VERY rarely for such an 'elite' player.

When does Draymond get ESPN airtime? When he's kicked a dick. Punched a teammate in the mouth. Trash talking and generally acting like an a$$h*le to fans (he's so easy to get angry). Generally causing havoc where skill is not actually needed.

You can defend his 'honor' (as if that douche has any) all you want. You'll get the last laugh when he's inducted in to the basketball Hall of Fame. It's a joke that he will, but it'll happen. If he wasn't an MSU alumni (trash school), you wouldn't even care that he's alive, much less successful (thanks to simpy good at playing, and being, a 'D'.

I know you're a troll and dumb, but Dray had 32/15/9 in Game 7 of the NBA finals and was a Kyrie miracle 3 from being Finals MVP, you're gonna have to step your game up to say he's been a zero on offense.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

You can't actually believe they started small ball?

The 90s Bulls went small with Rodman and Kukoc all the time. Plenty of teams did it.

You don't believe there was a gigantic shift in the way NBA teams play Basketball since the 14-15 Warriors? Steph & Draymond in their own ways changed how teams/players play Basketball. This isn't far fetched.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

You don't believe there was a gigantic shift in the way NBA teams play Basketball since the 14-15 Warriors? Steph & Draymond in their own ways changed how teams/players play Basketball. This isn't far fetched.

It's hilarious that you think Draymond can shoot 3s. I guess he can physically shoot them... he will just miss 70% of them.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

It's hilarious that you think Draymond can shoot 3s. I guess he can physically shoot them... he will just miss 70% of them.

When did I say he can shoot 3's? I think there was a mental block at some point personally, because his form from early in his career was much smoother than it is now but I've never even insinuated he's a good 3 point shooter or anything.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

When did I say he can shoot 3's? I think there was a mental block at some point personally, because his form from early in his career was much smoother than it is now but I've never even insinuated he's a good 3 point shooter or anything.

I assumed you thought he shoots 3s well because you said after his first title run, everyone was looking for 4s and 5s that can shoot 3s and create offense.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

I assumed you thought he shoots 3s well because you said after his first title run, everyone was looking for 4s and 5s that can shoot 3s and create offense.

I don't think he shoots 3s well (because it's a fact he doesn't), but at that time, and especially 15-16 after the first title he shot 4 3's a game at almost 40% that season. Teams were looking for that kind of guy, no? (and that's what the NBA is now. 4s/5s who stretch the floor).

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I don't think he shoots 3s well (because it's a fact he doesn't), but at that time, and especially 15-16 after the first title he shot 4 3's a game at almost 40% that season. Teams were looking for that kind of guy, no? (and that's what the NBA is now. 4s/5s who stretch the floor).

Ya, he had a good year that season on 3s. I agree with you that he had an impact in how the game is played now, but just don't see him as the sole guy that brought it on. He's your guy though so I understand your position.