Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC

[pip]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what if Al trimmed them all?

I knew Rosen well. Not his thing. He was a buy and flip type guy, keeping a few items now and then for his auctions. Besides, "Mint" cards didn't sell for a huge premium back then. Most of the nice Mantles were sold for around "book" or a little more, if I remember correctly. The very best ones, maybe 2x book. There were also a number of guys who were there or saw the cards shortly afterwards, including John Broggi. There's no way they were trimmed. They didn't need to be. All cards were pretty much Mint and snowy white except for centering flaws and a few bumped corners here and there.

[mjohnatgt]

He knows that; he's trolling you.

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

You've said that you believe PSA is grading altered cards in good faith as there's no evidence to the contrary. But the fact that PSA knows the Wagner is trimmed while continuing to stand behind the grade is evidence that PSA acts in bad faith and suggests they care more about their image than grading cards accurately. You thinking that's somehow irrelevant gives a lot of insight into your logic...

How are you able to claim that PSA grades cards in good faith while simultaneously recognizing the fact that they knowingly stand behind their grades on altered cards? Doesn't that cause any cognitive dissonance?

please don't quote him.

[3124508 on COMC]

Another four uncut 70s and 80s sheet purchases found tonight so far from acme.cards.

[pip]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Another four uncut 70s and 80s sheet purchases found tonight so far from acme.cards.

But....but....but....he only collects sheets. Lots of them from all different years, sports, and genres. It's his thing. He said so himself. I mean, it's not like he'd chop them up for tons of PSA 10 commons. No way. That doesn't sound like Evan at all.

-- Arthur

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Another four uncut 70s and 80s sheet purchases found tonight so far from acme.cards.

I would bet a decent amount of sheet purchases from auction houses that cannot be confirmed.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

what if Al trimmed them all?

Please, get a dog or cat and stop the trolling.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I continue to believe that if Joe Average submitted all the altered cards we've seen here, PSA would catch most of them. Whatever is going on has more to do with the identity of the submitters than PSA's incompetence.

How can anyone possibly know this?

[Clark]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

How can anyone possibly know this?

They don't. I have been reading these threads for a couple of months and I haven't seen the evidence. I understand the anger and disappointment, but there is a lot of speculation and theories.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

You've said that you believe PSA is grading altered cards in good faith as there's no evidence to the contrary. But the fact that PSA knows the Wagner is trimmed while continuing to stand behind the grade is evidence that PSA acts in bad faith and suggests they care more about their image than grading cards accurately. You thinking that's somehow irrelevant gives a lot of insight into your logic...

How are you able to claim that PSA grades cards in good faith while simultaneously recognizing the fact that they knowingly stand behind their grades on altered cards? Doesn't that cause any cognitive dissonance?

The Wagner is a complicated situation. PSA can't just announce "that Wagner is now an Auth" and then walk away from the mic. In order for that card to be changed the owner needs to come forward with it and bring it to PSA's attention. For whatever reason, the owner (I forget who it is) chose not to do that when OB broke. To be honest, I don't blame them.

There's no correlation between that Wagner and a PSA 8 Reggia Jackson rookie. Anyone that tries to draw a correlation between the two is over-simplifying things to strengthen their position. The Wagner is the very definition of an outlier. EVERYONE knew it was sheet cut for years. The card continued to change hands at record prices because, sheet cut or not, it's still the nicest Wagner in existence. Even if it were in an Auth holder it would still command massive money because that card itself has transcended the slab.

The card, and I'm not referring to all T206 Wagners, just this exact example, is legendary. There's a book written about it. It has biography. There's a story about it. Yes, most of it is about its nefarious beginning but a lot of it is also about its rise to fame and being the million dollar card and breaking through into mainstream media and entering the American zeitgeist. This specific example is the reason why people that don't collect would name the T206 Wagner on any kind of poll about famous baseball cards.

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." That applies completely here, to the Wagner. It doesn't matter what is on the flip, it's always going to be "the" Wagner. No other T206 Wagner has anything close to the rep this one does.

Does anyone think that if the Wagner were in an AUTH slab that it would sell for less than it did last time?

My point is, PSA can't change the grade on the Wagner if the owner doesn't want them to and if they can't change the grade why the hell would they start a negative campaign against their own brand that there would be no exit strategy for? Anyone asking for this isn't living in reality. No company on the planet would do this. And further, it's a moot point because the card transcends the slab.

That's my opinion on the situation.

Arthur

[chezball]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Please, get a dog or cat and stop the trolling.

He has a cat and it's not doing the trick. Would definitely recommend a dog.

[mjohnatgt]

Ken Kendrick gave them a way out from their Grade Guarantee on that card if they would reholder it to AUTH since he said he's received offers of $10M from people who know it is altered. So the downside risk of doing the right thing (instead of ignore, deceive, deflect) is almost nil, IMO.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Ken Kendrick gave them a way out from their Grade Guarantee on that card if they would reholder it to AUTH since he said he's received offers of $10M from people who know it is altered. So the downside risk of doing the right thing (instead of ignore, deceive, deflect) is almost nil, IMO.

Did Kendrick request PSA to put it in an Auth holder and they refused?

Arthur

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Please, get a dog or cat and stop the trolling.

im good, i have the memphis blues again

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

The Wagner is a complicated situation. PSA can't just announce "that Wagner is now an Auth" and then walk away from the mic. In order for that card to be changed the owner needs to come forward with it and bring it to PSA's attention. For whatever reason, the owner (I forget who it is) chose not to do that when OB broke. To be honest, I don't blame them.

There's no correlation between that Wagner and a PSA 8 Reggia Jackson rookie. Anyone that tries to draw a correlation between the two is over-simplifying things to strengthen their position. The Wagner is the very definition of an outlier. EVERYONE knew it was sheet cut for years. The card continued to change hands at record prices because, sheet cut or not, it's still the nicest Wagner in existence. Even if it were in an Auth holder it would still command massive money because that card itself has transcended the slab.

The card, and I'm not referring to all T206 Wagners, just this exact example, is legendary. There's a book written about it. It has biography. There's a story about it. Yes, most of it is about its nefarious beginning but a lot of it is also about its rise to fame and being the million dollar card and breaking through into mainstream media and entering the American zeitgeist. This specific example is the reason why people that don't collect would name the T206 Wagner on any kind of poll about famous baseball cards.

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." That applies completely here, to the Wagner. It doesn't matter what is on the flip, it's always going to be "the" Wagner. No other T206 Wagner has anything close to the rep this one does.

Does anyone think that if the Wagner were in an AUTH slab that it would sell for less than it did last time?

My point is, PSA can't change the grade on the Wagner if the owner doesn't want them to and if they can't change the grade why the hell would they start a negative campaign against their own brand that there would be no exit strategy for? Anyone asking for this isn't living in reality. No company on the planet would do this. And further, it's a moot point because the card transcends the slab.

That's my opinion on the situation.

Arthur

Everything posted here is the very definition of nonsense.

Allowing for “special cases” and favors only invites more fraud and simply discredits everything PSA does.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Ken Kendrick gave them a way out from their Grade Guarantee on that card if they would reholder it to AUTH since he said he's received offers of $10M from people who know it is altered. So the downside risk of doing the right thing (instead of ignore, deceive, deflect) is almost nil, IMO.

From reading various forums, apparently PSA's position is that the grade guarantee (aka contract) is with the original submitter and doesn't transfer from owner to owner.

[pspa123]

The Wagner flip is irrelevant at this point, it is a sui generis card whose value lies in its notoriety.

That said, it still says a lot about PSA that it started its grading service by giving a numerical grade to a card it surely knew was sheet cut (i.e., not factory), and then trimmed on top of that.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Clark

From reading various forums, apparently PSA's position is that the grade guarantee (aka contract) is with the original submitter and doesn't transfer from owner to owner.

That's 100 percent wrong. We've been through this and I just don't have the energy to repeat it.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by pspa123

That's 100 percent wrong. We've been through this and I just don't have the energy to repeat it.

Sorry I must of missed the discussion. Can you link the thread?

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Clark

They don't. I have been reading these threads for a couple of months and I haven't seen the evidence. I understand the anger and disappointment, but there is a lot of speculation and theories.

It’s certainly easy enough to test this out.

Responsibly doctor some cards, then publish what happens.

Anyone who doesn’t think this is a valid course of action is simply a proponent of the status quo.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Clark

Sorry I must of missed the discussion. Can you link the thread?

It was mostly an exchange between me and SCR but I don't recall which of the many scandal-related threads it was on.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

It’s certainly easy enough to test this out.

Responsibly doctor some cards, then publish what happens.

Anyone who doesn’t think this is a valid course of action is simply a proponent of the status quo.

WHITE HATS!

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pspa123

The Wagner flip is irrelevant at this point, it is a sui generis card whose value lies in its notoriety.



That said, it still says a lot about PSA that it started its grading service by giving a numerical grade to a card it surely knew was sheet cut (i.e., not factory), and then trimmed on top of that.

These are contradictory points.

Why bring up value? Are you saying valuable cards deserve to be different and that it’s ok for PSA to be inconsistent?

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Ken Kendrick gave them a way out from their Grade Guarantee on that card if they would reholder it to AUTH since he said he's received offers of $10M from people who know it is altered. So the downside risk of doing the right thing (instead of ignore, deceive, deflect) is almost nil, IMO.

It would be a true test of flip versus buying the card for the Wagner to be reholdered AUTHENTIC. I don't think it would play out well for the value. I personally do not believe the $10M offer/s were real. I certainly think those offers if real would change in an AUTHENTIC holder without numerical grade.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

It’s certainly easy enough to test this out.

Responsibly doctor some cards, then publish what happens.

Anyone who doesn’t think this is a valid course of action is simply a proponent of the status quo.

I think the validity would be tough, grading is a subjective opinion not an exact science. That is what the doctors are exploiting.