✹The PERENNIAL Shohei Ohtani Thread✹

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

His control has not been good but, he's unhittable when he throws strikes. Some of those pitches (and some balls) were just filthy. Looking forward to the command coming along.

Was able to see some good stuff at Pitching Ninja.


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[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by Vdm2018

Hopefully the angles will get him a win

Doesn't qualify for the win with 4 IP. Was always the plan to go 4.

[rman112]

Would Ohtani fans be opposed to him being a closer?

[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by rman112

Would Ohtani fans be opposed to him being a closer?

Not at all if his control never comes back. But he's pitched like 10 innings in 2+ years with a good track record of control pre-injury. I think he's earned a few more innings to get the feel back.

[Vdm2018]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

Doesn't qualify for the win with 4 IP. Was always the plan to go 4.

Ahh k.


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[rman112]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

Not at all if his control never comes back. But he's pitched like 10 innings in 2+ years with a good track record of control pre-injury. I think he's earned a few more innings to get the feel back.

That's the thing, though. There's a 'feel' where it's a physical thing - coming back from injury. But he doesn't seem to have a 'feel' for what he's doing out there. His stuff is incredible, but he throws just as much as he pitches.

[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by rman112

That's the thing, though. There's a 'feel' where it's a physical thing - coming back from injury. But he doesn't seem to have a 'feel' for what he's doing out there. His stuff is incredible, but he throws just as much as he pitches.

Don't disagree with you at all - there is a lack of feel of his pitches. It's also a new ligament with very little mileage on it, so it could take some time for him to break in. The next 5 months of baseball will tell the story.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

Don't disagree with you at all - there is a lack of feel of his pitches. It's also a new ligament with very little mileage on it, so it could take some time for him to break in. The next 5 months of baseball will tell the story.

This is where I think doing both hurts, because he really needs to take a deep dive into who he is as a pitcher, who he wants to be, and how he's going to do that. It's very difficult to hone a craft when your other craft is doing probably the most difficult thing in sports.

[Trout Fan]

Originally Posted by Vdm2018

Hopefully the angles will get him a win

Shohei can’t get the win, he didn’t pitch
the minimum 5 innings required to qualify.

[BigSlim16]

Originally Posted by rman112

Would Ohtani fans be opposed to him being a closer?

I'm not necessarily against him being a closer, but I don't think it's the best move for him. I think tonight is a great example of what he could be: a glorified opener. Give 4-5 solid innings as a starter then turn it over to the bullpen. If he can go over 5 innings that's great, but if he can give 4-5 good innings pitched to open the game, in addition to what he's doing as a hitter, I'll be a happy man

[tblood]

Originally Posted by rman112

That's the thing, though. There's a 'feel' where it's a physical thing - coming back from injury. But he doesn't seem to have a 'feel' for what he's doing out there. His stuff is incredible, but he throws just as much as he pitches.

He hasn’t pitched yet this season. He’s throwing. Albeit with nearly unhittable stuff!

I think you’re right about him not having the feel back. I hope he gets it and expect he will since the velocity and extension are there. After my surgery I had no clue where the ball was going. None whatsoever. Weirdest (and most depressing) feeling ever. My arm simply did not do what I wanted it to. But I also lost 12-15mph on my fastball and never felt like I could let loose. I believe loss of control is more often associated with shoulder injuries/surgery than TJ surgery.

A good deal of it is mental, too. Based on some of the pitches he’s throwing in certain counts, it looks like he has too much trust in his control. That or the catcher is calling a lousy game with a lousy plan.

I said it after his last outing, but I would love to see him simplify his pitch selection and approach, dial back the velocity a couple ticks, and see if he can get locked in. He doesn’t need to throw 3-0 splitters to keep the hitters off balance. His stuff is so nasty that most hitters have very little chance of making solid contact even if they know what is coming.


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[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by rman112

This is where I think doing both hurts, because he really needs to take a deep dive into who he is as a pitcher, who he wants to be, and how he's going to do that. It's very difficult to hone a craft when your other craft is doing probably the most difficult thing in sports.

Maybe it does end up hurting him, but he's been doing both his whole life. There's only so much time you can spend on something to get feel back - especially with a blister history. In the end, if it doesn't return, it's not because of a lack of time spent or effort.

You also have to realize this dude's entire life is baseball. No girlfriend, never parties, parents are high pedigree athletes who drilled hard work into him. He spends 12+ hours a day on baseball most of the year. Pretty sure he is already spending substantial time working on his pitch feel.

[tblood]

Originally Posted by rman112

This is where I think doing both hurts, because he really needs to take a deep dive into who he is as a pitcher, who he wants to be, and how he's going to do that. It's very difficult to hone a craft when your other craft is doing probably the most difficult thing in sports.

I disagree. Pitchers spend less time doing what they do on the field in practice than any other position. Bullpen sessions take a relatively small amount of time. I really believe there is more than enough time in his daily routine to maximize pitching and hitting.


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[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by tblood

He hasn’t pitched yet this season. He’s throwing. Albeit with nearly unhittable stuff!

I think you’re right about him not having the feel back. I hope he gets it and expect he will since the velocity and extension are there. After my surgery I had no clue where the ball was going. None whatsoever. Weirdest (and most depressing) feeling ever. My arm simply did not do what I wanted it to. But I also lost 12-15mph on my fastball and never felt like I could let loose. I believe loss of control is more often associated with shoulder injuries/surgery than TJ surgery.

A good deal of it is mental, too. Based on some of the pitches he’s throwing in certain counts, it looks like he has too much trust in his control. That or the catcher is calling a lousy game with a lousy plan.

I said it after his last outing, but I would love to see him simplify his pitch selection and approach, dial back the velocity a couple ticks, and see if he can get locked in. He doesn’t need to throw 3-0 splitters to keep the hitters off balance. His stuff is so nasty that most hitters have very little chance of making solid contact even if they know what is coming.


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Darvish lost his control after TJS too. Turned out okay, I think.

[tblood]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

Darvish lost his control after TJS too. Turned out okay, I think.

Quite a few have but most of them get it back. Shoulder surgery is a different story. Thankfully there aren’t as many shoulder problems these days. Doesn’t seem to be at least.


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[rman112]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

Maybe it does end up hurting him, but he's been doing both his whole life. There's only so much time you can spend on something to get feel back - especially with a blister history. In the end, if it doesn't return, it's not because of a lack of time spent or effort.

You also have to realize this dude's entire life is baseball. No girlfriend, never parties, parents are high pedigree athletes who drilled hard work into him. He spends 12+ hours a day on baseball most of the year. Pretty sure he is already spending substantial time working on his pitch feel.

It's not showing at all as regards to actually being a 'pitcher'. Pedro really ripped into him on MLBN, regarding his pitch selection, how he attacks guys, and his body language/pace. And it's not because of dislike; it's because of his potential and the standard he should be held to.

He can love baseball, and that's great. But there's also a limit to how much one person can physically, and arguably more mentally, handle - while asking them to thrive at two things simultaneously.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by tblood

I disagree. Pitchers spend less time doing what they do on the field in practice than any other position. Bullpen sessions take a relatively small amount of time. I really believe there is more than enough time in his daily routine to maximize pitching and hitting.


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Don't forget the video room and coming up with game plans as well. Pitchers have down time physically, but not as much mentally besides (for most) the day before a start. Most guys run, and a lot lift as well.

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by Vdm2018

Hopefully the angles will get him a win

Need at least 5 innings for a win.

[anusinha]

Dudes stuff is unhittable. Just throw strikes, no one can touch it.

[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by rman112

It's not showing at all as regards to actually being a 'pitcher'. Pedro really ripped into him on MLBN, regarding his pitch selection, how he attacks guys, and his body language/pace. And it's not because of dislike; it's because of his potential and the standard he should be held to.



He can love baseball, and that's great. But there's also a limit to how much one person can physically, and arguably more mentally, handle - while asking them to thrive at two things simultaneously.

I don't like the way he is attacking hitters either, but it's easy to point things out on your couch or in a booth. He is still getting to know his pitches again with a new ligament.

Bottom line - it's been two games. It feels like you're really eager for him to end being a two way player, which would be the highest outcome for his value. This may shock you, but settling for a median outcome isn't acceptable to some athletes.

[anusinha]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

Need at least 5 innings for a win.

Can you do something weird like.... have Pujols throw one pitch as an opener and then switch with Ohtani at 1b, so that Ohtani can get the win throwing less than 5 innings?

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

I don't like the way he is attacking hitters either, but it's easy to point things out on your couch or in a booth. He is still getting to know his pitches again with a new ligament.

Bottom line - it's been two games. It feels like you're really eager for him to end being a two way player, which would be the highest outcome for his value. This may shock you, but settling for a median outcome isn't acceptable to some athletes.

I think it's the way you can most reastically maximize his value.

[Trueblue]

Originally Posted by rman112

I think it's the way you can most reastically maximize his value.

That's life though. Prospects of taking a "pretty good" guarantee over being legendary. You don't get in the way of a guy that has a shot at legendary.

In the end, it's a two-way door. If he continues to walk the town, relief pitching will be there next year. Let's enjoy this year in the meantime.

[rman112]

Originally Posted by Trueblue

That's life though. Prospects of taking a "pretty good" guarantee over being legendary. You don't get in the way of a guy that has a shot at legendary.

In the end, it's a two-way door. If he continues to walk the town, relief pitching will be there next year. Let's enjoy this year in the meantime.

Hey, it worked for Ruth.

[tblood]

Originally Posted by rman112

Don't forget the video room and coming up with game plans as well. Pitchers have down time physically, but not as much mentally besides (for most) the day before a start. Most guys run, and a lot lift as well.

I hear ya. I spent my fair share of time in that world. Players don’t spend as much time watching game film to discover and analyze tendencies as they used to. Advanced stats and crazy in-depth scouting changed a lot when it comes to prep. Catchers have far more to study and learn.

Pitchers do run a lot. I mean A LOT. But Shohei’s conditioning works both ways for him and there are all kinds of new recovery methods these days.


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