MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca

[ThoseBackPages]

it was removed?

[corndog]

PSA Cert #24537479

1966 Topps N.L. E.R.A. Leaders #221

Value gain of $661.66


This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller lostandfound0 as a PSA 7 for $15.00 on December 03, 2014.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999

Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA 9 for $676.66 on September 13, 2015.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159398

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed left edge.

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537480

1968 Topps Don Nottebart #171 - Population 1 of 8


Sold by PWCC on September 14, 2015 for $157.50. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159562

[geomon]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

But this won't stop the criminals from cracking the slab, altering the card, then either resubmitting or selling raw.

You can if you take high resolution front and back scans of every single card you receive and compare it to the same cards you have in your database. No different than what's going on here with BODA.

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537481

1968 Topps Checklist 284-370 #278


Sold by PWCC on September 14, 2015 for $132.17. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159589

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537482

1968 Topps Curt Blefary #312

Current PSA Registry Sets:
This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including WHOLELOTTATENZ.

Sold by PWCC on September 14, 2015 for $316.26. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159599

[base set]

75s ? Nooooooooooooo


Pete Rose sure had a nice sig in the 70s

[Donkaylove]

good lord --anything and everything. so bad for our hobby.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #24537476

1967 Topps Gaylord Perry #320

Value gain of $667.90

Current PSA Registry Sets:
This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including BBCards4U2.

This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller www.stevenovella.com as a PSA 8 for $41.10 on March 11, 2015.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999

Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA 10 for $709.00 on September 14, 2015.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159482

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed top and bottom edges.

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537470

1966 Topps Dave Roberts #571 - Population 1 of 4


Sold by PWCC on September 13, 2015 for $172.47. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159434

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537469

1966 Topps John Blanchard #268 - Population 1 of 5

Current PSA Registry Sets:
This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including eric891.

Sold by PWCC on September 13, 2015 for $104.50. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159401

[pspa123]

To repeat, based on everything I know from many many people who submit vintage, the number of 10s we are seeing here from the same subs is beyond astonishing.

[MoreToppsPlease]

What percentage of 9s and 10s from pre-'76 have been altered? 90%?

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537468

1966 Topps Marcelino Lopez #155 - Population 1 of 6


Sold by PWCC on September 13, 2015 for $136.00. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1159393

[corndog]

*** I am going to post these even though I cannot find a prior purchase. Card-guy actively purchased raw vintage card collections and lots and many of the cards in his PSA submission runs do not have any prior singular purchase to be found. I have come across too many of these to be considered an anomaly. I just don't believe, in my personal opinion, that anyone else submitting these vintage cards would receive a 10 with regularity like card-guy has.

.PSA Cert #24537455

1965 Topps Pedro Gonzalez #97 - Population 1 of 10


Sold by PWCC on November 10, 2015 for $213.50. The PSA cert number is from a card-guy submission. I could not find a prior graded purchase so it may have been purchased raw.

PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1183214

[corndog]

The card above is the 83rd vintage PSA 10 found so far linked to Rich Katz, Johnathan Miller, Scot Maxwell and Nate Johnson. All four men are tied to Orange County Sports Investments (OCSI) which is a 20 minute drive from PSA.

[1955parkies]

At a glance it looks like their turnaround times from purchase to regrading are incredibly short in relation to the Moser examples, some of which took years to resurface. I would guess that this is a full time job, and that submissions are turned around in a hurry once received at PSA, and that multiple submissions aren't needed on many of the cards to get the desired outcome.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by geomon

You can if you take high resolution front and back scans of every single card you receive and compare it to the same cards you have in your database. No different than what's going on here with BODA.

This is of limited utility to the average hobbyist and wouldn’t help at shows or shops. Part of the reason why BODA is finding cards is that they know where to look.

Besides, card doctors are just going to start covering up fibers on old cards and the same matching method wouldn’t work well on modern cards.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by DaRitz

The problem is that you can't prove a card was trimmed. BODA has removed the "shadow of a doubt" with before and after pictures... but if you have a card in your hand, you can't tell if it was trimmed. Even if you stack it up with others, you can only know that it's "short" but you don't know that it was definitively trimmed. And graders can't know it for sure, either.

This all ends with the size of the card listed on every slab. I really don't see any alternative. I just hope the size is listed as a "variance from median card in this set" so it means something. As I said before... something like:

Height: -1.2mm
Width: -0.4mm

The market can set the price on that short 10 compared to the full size 7.

And while you could argue that once you do that, you're effectively just "allowing" card trimming... I would argue that there would be no money in it anymore... because I would expect that full-size 7 will sell for more than the short 10.

List the sizes (as a variance) = no more trimming.

This is the whole point I brought up that nobody wanted to hear. If you have a card that was 'trimmed', but you can't tell that it was trimmed, then who really cares? Who cares if the card was cut by Topps or by Gary Moser? All you can do is add card dimensions as one of the criteria for grading. That means that factory short cut cards would be dinged for it and factory long cut cards would be trimmer fodder. In any case, I think that signed79 is spot on with his analysis...I anticipate that people will 'accept' micro trimming, but that you will see a price compression between PSA 8 and 10. 10s will carry a suspicion that will probably eventually bring their prices back down to earth and you'll see them selling for much closer to what a clean PSA8 or 9 goes for.

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

But this won't stop the criminals from cracking the slab, altering the card, then either resubmitting or selling raw.

You'll never stop the criminals. No matter what the feds find, no matter what sentences they hand down, it will not stop people from trimming cards. The only possible thing that would stop them is for the money spigot to be shut off, and that's not up to the feds. It's up to all of us collectors.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #22787784

1968 Topps A.L. Batting Leaders #2

Value gain of $290.50

This card was purchased by Ebay ID card-buyer from Ebay seller higradecards10 as a PSA 8 for $61.00 on January 22, 2014.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...=&limit=999999

Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA 9 for $351.50 on June 08, 2014.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1007166

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed left and top edges. No back image provided with first sale data.

[unclemonkey]

I've looked at tens of thousands of 80's Topps and many had printing flaws (spots)

Never took the time to compare if they were repeatable flaws.

Any chance these are from one printing plate duplicated over and over and you are looking at duplicates?

Some like '87 Canseco come to mind.

[dustin42]

Originally Posted by unclemonkey

I've looked at tens of thousands of 80's Topps and many had printing flaws (spots)

Never took the time to compare if they were repeatable flaws.

Any chance these are from one printing plate duplicated over and over and you are looking at duplicates?

Some like '87 Canseco come to mind.

If that was the ones on comc would have those marks.

https://www.comc.com/Cards/Baseball/...ngraded/DCR/VG

[corndog]

Originally Posted by unclemonkey

I've looked at tens of thousands of 80's Topps and many had printing flaws (spots)

Never took the time to compare if they were repeatable flaws.

Any chance these are from one printing plate duplicated over and over and you are looking at duplicates?

Some like '87 Canseco come to mind.

No. If I can confirm a match I post it. If I can't find a previous image from a prior sale I still post it along with that being noted, but only if the card is from an OCSI submission. If I can't find fibers or paper glitches that match I will look at the edges for cut patterns. If I am not certain I don't post it. I usually add text if there is a unique flaw or pattern to help others see what I used to identify the match. I have passed on posting many cards due to the inability to find a prior graded card purchase or the images from the prior sale are not usable. I have passed over a ton of PSA 8s and 9s to look for the unheard of frequent 10s. My background is printing so I have been looking at printed images for years. The matching part of this is actually pretty easy for me.

Typing with my thumb on an Android is not easy for me...

[DaRitz]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

But this won't stop the criminals from cracking the slab, altering the card, then either resubmitting or selling raw.

Right. But I'm saying that I expect a "full size" 7 will sell for more than a "short" 10. So there won't be an incentive to buy, crack, trim, and resubmit. Buying raw wouldn't have any more or less risks than now... you don't know its size unless you measure. The issue is that you don't currently know the size of the graded cards either...

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Various vintage cuts when trimmed in a different manner can absolutely be detected and proved to be trimmed with elementary school science lab magnification equipment

"Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles." - Joe Orlando

We went to different elementary schools. I'll take your word for it that a different cut can be detected under a microscope. If it's financially feasible, PSA should be using that technology.

Originally Posted by bensie

This is the whole point I brought up that nobody wanted to hear. If you have a card that was 'trimmed', but you can't tell that it was trimmed, then who really cares? Who cares if the card was cut by Topps or by Gary Moser? All you can do is add card dimensions as one of the criteria for grading. That means that factory short cut cards would be dinged for it and factory long cut cards would be trimmer fodder. In any case, I think that signed79 is spot on with his analysis...I anticipate that people will 'accept' micro trimming, but that you will see a price compression between PSA 8 and 10. 10s will carry a suspicion that will probably eventually bring their prices back down to earth and you'll see them selling for much closer to what a clean PSA8 or 9 goes for.

I generally agree with most of this, especially the bold. I think people might accept the "microtrimming" in sets where there was wide factory variation in the sizes... "was this 10 trimmed slightly, or just come out short like other factory-made cards?" If there's no way to tell, then... there's no way to tell.

Originally Posted by bensie

You'll never stop the criminals. No matter what the feds find, no matter what sentences they hand down, it will not stop people from trimming cards. The only possible thing that would stop them is for the money spigot to be shut off, and that's not up to the feds. It's up to all of us collectors.

Boom. If there's money to be made, there will be fraud. But more information (card sizes) can take away the opportunity to make money. I want them to start this ASAP... there's no downside, and not much more work for the graders.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by DaRitz

Right. But I'm saying that I expect a "full size" 7 will sell for more than a "short" 10. So there won't be an incentive to buy, crack, trim, and resubmit. Buying raw wouldn't have any more or less risks than now... you don't know its size unless you measure. The issue is that you don't currently know the size of the graded cards either...

I see where you're going, but that's a slippery slope as well. Attempting to reduce the acceptable size tolerance can easily weed out plenty of unaltered cards.