PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Yes, it’s curious to see a lack in of prospectors in these threads (isn’t this supposed to be a prospector-heavy forum?) given the close correlation between grading and prospecting. Or maybe I’m just missing them.

Or, maybe they’re accustomed to these kinds of crises and know to stay away. Apparently they feel as though they can successfully manage any fallout from any grading scandal and still turn a profit?

Anyway, it would be great to hear from more prospectors here.

I'd wager that most prospectors are staying away from this thread because of the heavy emphasis on vintage being posted in here. They'd need to see more modern cards to start to worry.

[superdan49]

This is the vintage thread with Gary Moser trimmed cards. Corndog and I have taken the lead here. Vintage trims uncovered are almost exclusively from Moser at this point, and all are PSA.

Most of the modern stuff is being uncovered by 3124508. A lot comes from Kevin Burge, but there are some other trimmers as well. It is a mix of PSA and BGS.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Yes, it’s curious to see a lack in of prospectors in these threads (isn’t this supposed to be a prospector-heavy forum?) given the close correlation between grading and prospecting. Or maybe I’m just missing them.

Anyway, it would be great to hear from more prospectors here.

Prospectors tend to invest in Bowman Chrome 1st/Autos prior to them getting to the show and stick with releases the last 5 years. Most new stuff is already BGS 9.5/PSA 9 plus. There is no shortage of newer stuff. There is still a lot in packs. Additionally, most prospectors buy low where people wouldn't think of trimming yet. The most you'll probably see is cleaning of the surfaces. I would say it would be hard to get a trimmed newer card though the grading process but my confidence is shot.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Why do people care what other people do with their money?



These people you speak of can either (a) not buy cards they think are overpriced, or (b) go take a hike.

Let’s limit your question to just the hobby given this thread’s subject matter so I can ask you a similar question: why wouldn’t I care what people do *in the hobby*?

Right off the bat here are two answers to your initial question:
#1: unreasonably expensive cards price people out of the market who actually enjoy the cards; and
#2: unreasonably expensive cards invite corruption to the entire hobby

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Let’s limit your question to just the hobby given this thread’s subject matter so I can ask you a similar question: why wouldn’t I care what people do *in the hobby*?

Right off the bat here are two answers to your initial question:
#1: unreasonably expensive cards price people out of the market who actually enjoy the cards; and
#2: unreasonably expensive cards invite corruption to the entire hobby

To point #1, I enjoy Ferrari's and mansions, but sadly I'm priced out. Maybe I should join forums for those and complain about the people who have these things.

To point #2, good point.

[ThoseBackPages]

"#1: unreasonably expensive cards price people out of the market who actually enjoy the cards"


this ones tough.

so, someone whos coming back to (or starting with) the HOBBY (note, hobby, not investments) is priced out of a 52 Topps Mantle second year card. so they cannot enjoy it?

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

"#1: unreasonably expensive cards price people out of the market who actually enjoy the cards"


this ones tough.

so, someone whos coming back to (or starting with) the HOBBY (note, hobby, not investments) is priced out of a 52 Topps Mantle second year card. so they cannot enjoy it?

And to be clear, grading didn't price them out. Supply and demand did.

[cking]

I dont want grading to go away. I just want it to be accurate and correct.

You are paying them to provide a service. Is it asking so much to expect them to do it right?

When their opinion could mean the diffrence between a card being worth $100...$500 or $5000 then yes, I expect accuracy.

Would you like to know what baffles me the most in all of this? The people who grade alot of cards should be the ones who are the most concerned with cards being graded properly.

Yet you guys seem to care the least out of everyone. I dont follow that.

You guys are the ones who should be banging down the door of the grading companies and telling them to get their act together.

Dont you want to know for sure that the cards you spend your hard earned money on are exactly what they should be and not some trimmed up fraudulent card?

Some of you guys make it seem like we are being out of line because we expect accuracy when it comes to graded cards.

The grading companies are claiming to be experts who can detect altered cards when in fact they cannot. That is whats out of line. Yet you guys are ok with that.

I find that incredibly odd.

[charnick]

omg, Stacy Keach's line readings in these are gold.

Originally Posted by superdan49

For those members who have not seen these clips and keep hearing references to the CNBC show American Greed, here are the two key clips on the Mastro scandal:

[Vladdy Jr]

Doesn’t PSA have a “guarantee” that will refund anyone that has purchased a PROVEN trimmed card? In addition, I heard the reimbursement is the current market value which is determined by PSA?
Furthermore, BGS doesn’t offer this guarantee. Is this also true?

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by cking

I dont want grading to go away. I just want it to be accurate and correct.

You are paying them to provide a service. Is it asking so much to expect them to do it right?

When their opinion could mean the diffrence between a card being worth $100...$500 or $5000 then yes, I expect accuracy.

Would you like to know what baffles me the most in all of this? The people who grade alot of cards should be the ones who are the most concerned with cards being graded properly.

Yet you guys seem to care the least out of everyone. I dont follow that.

You guys are the ones who should be banging down the door of the grading companies and telling them to get their act together.

Dont you want to know for sure that the cards you spend your hard earned money on are exactly what they should be and not some trimmed up fraudulent card?

Some of you guys make it seem like we are being out of line because we expect accuracy when it comes to graded cards.

The grading companies are claiming to be experts who can detect altered cards when in fact they cannot. That is whats out of line. Yet you guys are ok with that.

I find that incredibly odd.

They say the least bc they don’t want the gravy train to end. I’ve had quite a few side conversations with some high volume graders about the topic at hand and the consensus is the same. They’re going to wait it out until it hopefully fades away all while continuing to sell crap sealed in plastic to dummies. These guys don’t care if grading is accurate or not. All they care about is making profits off the ignorant and good for them!! A fool and his money soon part. I see nothing wrong with that mentality. Some people will even come in here and white knight all while continuing to sell garbage lol. It’s like, if some of these big time graders found out that half their collection has been trimmed or colored or altered in anyway, do you really think they’re going to destroy the card to take it out of circulation....or better yet, send it back to a TPG to get it in a new slab that says altered? HELLLLLL NO. They’re gonna kick the can down the street to the next dummy and collect the cash. Watch out for the white knights on the topic. They’re going to be the most dangerous ones.

[yankee98]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

On certain marquee cards, sure they charge more (52T Mantle, 09 BCA Trout). However, I've submitted cards worth >$1000 in bulk orders with my personal "declared value" as $99 and not once had an issue.

Do you think the trimmers use this technique as well to avoid the scrutiny that might come at a higher price tier?

[boston12]

I love the fact that some people are acting like graded cards are the only issue here. Probably safe to say if you are buying raw those might be the ones they screwed up too badly to get past graders. Either way it sucks. I still say graded is a safer bet. Nothing is full proof obviously.

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by boston12

I love the fact that some people are acting like graded cards are the only issue here. Probably safe to say if you are buying raw those might be the ones they screwed up too badly to get past graders. Either way it sucks. I still say graded is a safer bet. Nothing is full proof obviously.

So with this mentality you’re basically saying you’d rather pay $300 for possibly graded crap then $100 for possibly raw crap? Perfect slabhead mentality in a nutshell.

[boston12]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

So with this mentality you’re basically saying you’d rather pay $300 for possibly graded crap then $100 for possibly raw crap? Perfect slabhead mentality in a nutshell.

It’s not that easy to define. It depends on the card I’m looking at. I buy 90% of my cards on eBay the rest come from wax. I don’t have good experience with raw on eBay unless seller has 10+ pics to show condition. But yes I would trust graded more then raw when I can’t see card in person

And for the record I’m not in panic mode about this trimming stuff. Slightly concerned sure. My highest valued cards either came pack pulled or bought over 10-15 years ago (less likely to be trimmed)

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

They say the least bc they don’t want the gravy train to end. I’ve had quite a few side conversations with some high volume graders about the topic at hand and the consensus is the same. They’re going to wait it out until it hopefully fades away all while continuing to sell crap sealed in plastic to dummies. These guys don’t care if grading is accurate or not. All they care about is making profits off the ignorant and good for them!! A fool and his money soon part. I see nothing wrong with that mentality. Some people will even come in here and white knight all while continuing to sell garbage lol. It’s like, if some of these big time graders found out that half their collection has been trimmed or colored or altered in anyway, do you really think they’re going to destroy the card to take it out of circulation....or better yet, send it back to a TPG to get it in a new slab that says altered? HELLLLLL NO. They’re gonna kick the can down the street to the next dummy and collect the cash. Watch out for the white knights on the topic. They’re going to be the most dangerous ones.

I'd consider myself a medium-volume submitter and I couldn't disagree with you more. Most people submitting high volume are doing so with modern cards, and typically volume that they pulled from packs themselves or bought in breaks. I have zero concern that cards I've submitted are trimmed. PSA has returned a small handful of cards that I pulled myself as minimum size not met, but I guess that fact goes against your agenda, so you probably don't want to hear it. Heck, just go to the Brady thread and look how often members get the dreaded N6 from PSA on their Brady rookies.

The real concern with this issue is that there seems to be a small handful of submitters pulling off this scheme. That implies an insider is involved IMO. If we can start finding widespread instances from hundreds of different submitters, we've got a real problem.

Additionally, grading involves the human element. From making errors to ulterior motives, the human element is never perfect. Literally every trade has room for error baked into their quality metrics. Heck doctors even have malpractice insurance! Doctors, who go to school for 10+ years will make mistakes. But no, we should expect graders making little money to have 100% accuracy at all times and should be fired the first time they make mistakes.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

So with this mentality you’re basically saying you’d rather pay $300 for possibly graded crap then $100 for possibly raw crap? Perfect slabhead mentality in a nutshell.

We have proof that a VERY small percentage of PSA cards are trimmed. There you go again implying that all graded cards are altered.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I'd consider myself a medium-volume submitter and I couldn't disagree with you more. Most people submitting high volume are doing so with modern cards, and typically volume that they pulled from packs themselves or bought in breaks. I have zero concern that cards I've submitted are trimmed. PSA has returned a small handful of cards that I pulled myself as minimum size not met, but I guess that fact goes against your agenda, so you probably don't want to hear it. Heck, just go to the Brady thread and look how often members get the dreaded N6 from PSA on their Brady rookies.

The real concern with this issue is that there seems to be a small handful of submitters pulling off this scheme. That implies an insider is involved IMO. If we can start finding widespread instances from hundreds of different submitters, we've got a real problem.

Additionally, grading involves the human element. From making errors to ulterior motives, the human element is never perfect. Literally every trade has room for error baked into their quality metrics. Heck doctors even have malpractice insurance! Doctors, who go to school for 10+ years will make mistakes. But no, we should expect graders making little money to have 100% accuracy at all times and should be fired the first time they make mistakes.

scam.

[ThoseBackPages]

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

We have proof that a VERY small percentage of PSA cards are trimmed. There you go again implying that all graded cards are altered.

I agree that some members here overstate the problem, but you are understating the risk here.

A group of a few guys have uncovered a few hundred trimmed or altered cards:
1) Since January alone
2) In their free time
3) Using only Worthpoint, Google, and eBay

Can you imagine if there were a team of say a dozen of us with working full-time at this for a year and if we had access to submission data from these known trimmers? I guarantee in the course of such an investigation, the names of other trimmers would be outed too. The results would be sobering news for PWCC and PSA, and for anyone who is downplaying this scandal.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I agree that some members here overstate the problem, but you are understating the risk here.

A group of a few guys have uncovered a few hundred trimmed or altered cards:
1) Since January alone
2) In their free time
3) Using only Worthpoint, Google, and eBay

Can you imagine if there were a team of say a dozen of us with working full-time at this for a year and if we had access to submission data from these known trimmers? I guarantee in the course of such an investigation, the names of other trimmers would be outed too. The results would be sobering news for PWCC and PSA, and for anyone who is downplaying this scandal.

This^^^

I have been solely looking into vintage cards recently in order to provide proof that an assortment of brands and years can be found and confirmed altered. Vintage is much more time consuming and difficult than modern but it was important to show others just how broad the altering is in the card market. When you take the time to look at the quantity of high end vintage that's been graded in the last two years alone it raises flags big time. I haven't even approached 1960's - 1970's rookies which sell for huge $$$ as 10's.

Dan said elsewhere that this is Chapter One and I agree.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I agree that some members here overstate the problem, but you are understating the risk here.

A group of a few guys have uncovered a few hundred trimmed or altered cards:
1) Since January alone
2) In their free time
3) Using only Worthpoint, Google, and eBay

Can you imagine if there were a team of say a dozen of us with working full-time at this for a year and if we had access to submission data from these known trimmers? I guarantee in the course of such an investigation, the names of other trimmers would be outed too. The results would be sobering news for PWCC and PSA, and for anyone who is downplaying this scandal.

I totally agree with you, but most things we've found can be tied back to a select few nefarious individuals. I don't mean to down play the situation, as it's very serious. I just want people to understand that the entire process/company isn't likely corrupt. There's a fraud ring that needs to come to full light, the parties be exposed, and preventative measures put in place to prevent it from happening again in the future.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I totally agree with you, but most things we've found can be tied back to a select few nefarious individuals. I don't mean to down play the situation, as it's very serious. I just want people to understand that the entire process/company isn't likely corrupt. There's a fraud ring that needs to come to full light, the parties be exposed, and preventative measures put in place to prevent it from happening again in the future.

I certainly hope at this point, there's some kind of fraud ring otherwise TPGs arent measuring cards.

All of this just gives hurts the consumer's confidence to spend big $$ for a 10.

Hell when I'm ready to load in on a Psa 1 or 2 Mantle or Mays RC I'm going to assume that it possibly had some work done, and spend accordingly.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I have, but I think folks need to put the pitchforks down for a moment and think this through. No matter the small amount of money PSA could possibly make on this scheme, it's nothing compared the amount they would lose by destroying their reputation by purposely committing fraud.

I'm sure they (PSA, the company) are not purposely coordinating efforts with these bad actors. However, I'm fully convinced an employee(s) must be in on it. If the company in general had a "let this scammer perpetrate his crime" policy, it would have come out years ago by ex-employees. No, this is going to be someone(s) with the ability to ensure submissions by a single entity are treated differently than the rest. It could be a low-level employee all the way up the chain, but I highly doubt this is a situation where everyone in the company is in on the scheme. They will likely find those involved, and they will act accordingly.

While a punch to the face, grading companies needed something like this to happen to elicit the change needed in the industry. I anticipate their eventual press release about the topic will include a rundown of their investigation, a high-level summary of the action taken, and changes that they are going to make to prevent this situation from occurring again in the future. A couple things I hope comes out of all this are tighter controls on card size and better tracking of serially-numbered cards.

To put the future of grading in perspective, let's take a look at other major corporate failures of recent past. Consumers have a very short memory when it comes to things like this.

A.) Target leaked debit card info for 40 million people. People still shop at Target.
B.) Wells Fargo created fake accounts for customers to meet sales quotas. People still bank at Wells Fargo.
C.) Facebook leaked info on 87 million users to Cambridge Analytica. People still use Facebook.



To close, the work performed by the members here is fantastic! It needed to be brought to light, and now that it has work can be done to move the hobby forward. One step back, two steps forward.

A. I don't shop @ Target Period
B. Wells Fargo is the biggest fraud bank of all time. I would never bank there
F Wells Fargo PERIOD
C. I don't use anymore Facebook PERIOD
D I don't buy from known scammer Brent Mastro PERIOD
E I Don't buy Baseball cards (leaning very heavily right now to never buying another card.

I have integrity in business and I don't use other companies for anything who don't. I do agree with the rest of you post, however.

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Suppose he didn't submit his own cards.

We know who does. Brent Mastro @ PWCC. The King of the Shave, fluff and flip.