Alteration vs. Conservation Defined - Page 6

mnvikingstwins · 05-07-2019, 01:30 PM

MoreToppsPlease · 05-07-2019, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corndog

Okay, I will teach you what to look for on vintage cards. Since you brought up the Dom DiMaggio card I will use that one. Open another page for it and you will be able to read what I write and look at the same time.
Do not look at the front since most of what you see is printing ink.so look at the backs of both images. On the third line of type you can read where it says 'Also a capable hitter'. Do you see the brown spot just above the letter 's' in Also? That spot is a pulp fiber and it is like a fingerprint. When paper stock is manufactured the natural finish of paper is grayish light brown. Included in the paper are minuscule pulp fibers which are brownish since it is an actual tree fiber. The randomness of these fibers makes natural paper or card stock no different than a fingerprint. Therefore each vintage card is one of a kind if natural unbleached paper is used. There are other points of reference on that card as well. The exact same card is in both images.

Hope this helps.

PSA should offer a large bounty to anyone who identifies oversights such as these...

spuds1961 · 05-07-2019, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnvikingstwins

Is it a coincidence that this film and the Mantle both came out in 1952, and much like duck and cover wouldn't save you back then it can't save you today either.

KhalDrogo · 05-07-2019, 02:14 PM

It’s great to see people over and over again say “nothing is going to happen”, “we’ve seen this before”, “nobody cares”.

This saga is in its infancy. You think they got Mastro in six months? Just make sure you’re on the right side of history when this unfolds.

mrdallas · 05-07-2019, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

It’s great to see people over and over again say “nothing is going to happen”, “we’ve seen this before”, “nobody cares”.

This saga is in its infancy. You think they got Mastro in six months? Just make sure you’re on the right side of history when this unfolds.

Please don't overplay this scenario. Nothing to see here. Just a small fish messing around....

RYBOWSKI97 · 05-07-2019, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asujbl

Sure... decreased sales, decreased confidence, decreased margin since they are fee based... now to what level you define a "hit" will vary greatly

But PWCC isn't going away. That's simply hyperbole.

Will they lose some customers on Blowout, Facebook, Instagram? Sure

But in the grand scheme of things 99% of us don't make a dent in their numbers anyway.

you are right about it not making a big dent if we stop buying but word travels fast. in time they will burn themselves altogether. the schilling, trimming, altering, just being classless isnt going to end well for them.

RYBOWSKI97 · 05-07-2019, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

It’s great to see people over and over again say “nothing is going to happen”, “we’ve seen this before”, “nobody cares”.

This saga is in its infancy. You think they got Mastro in six months? Just make sure you’re on the right side of history when this unfolds.

it will be a long process but they are going to feel it. blowout is a small amount of people in the hobby but as i said word travels fast. i know of 5 people i deal with locally who have cut pwcc off. if u multiply that by a few hundred active members spreading the word it will start hurting more and more.

asujbl · 05-07-2019, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RYBOWSKI97

you are right about it not making a big dent if we stop buying but word travels fast. in time they will burn themselves altogether. the schilling, trimming, altering, just being classless isnt going to end well for them.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. That's a definite.

I do think the sellers (meaning a PWCC or potentially other co-signors) will feel it more than the third party graders.

I probably should have clarified that.

But I still don't think PWCC will cease to exist like the original post I replied to. That's just exaggeration for exaggerations sake.

People will swear off them until that one card pops up that they have to have. That's where it will be fascinating to see.

GatorPie · 05-07-2019, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asujbl

Hyperbole much?

You realize how small at % of the card market that Blowout actually is right?

There are thousand and thousands, especially high dollar collectors, that couldn't care less about any of this.

Truer words have never been spoken. No one is changing the hobby in these threads.

GatorPie · 05-07-2019, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

It’s great to see people over and over again say “nothing is going to happen”, “we’ve seen this before”, “nobody cares”.

This saga is in its infancy. You think they got Mastro in six months? Just make sure you’re on the right side of history when this unfolds.

"The right side of history" LOL you guys kill me. Like calling out some card trimmers is the equivalent of the civil rights movement or something.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if PWCC's business goes UP in the coming years. PSA & BGS certainly won't be hurt one iota.

pspa123 · 05-07-2019, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asujbl

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. That's a definite.

I do think the sellers (meaning a PWCC or potentially other co-signors) will feel it more than the third party graders.

I probably should have clarified that.

But I still don't think PWCC will cease to exist like the original post I replied to. That's just exaggeration for exaggerations sake.

People will swear off them until that one card pops up that they have to have. That's where it will be fascinating to see.

In the end, to most people I think, stuff is what matters most.

pspa123 · 05-07-2019, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

"The right side of history" LOL you guys kill me. Like this is the equivalent of the civil rights movement or something.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if PWCC's business goes UP in the coming years.

Absent law enforcement action, I sadly agree. They seem to have hit all the right notes for many people, they are tailored to the newer generation, and they undeniably get a wide variety of desirable material for every auction.

GatorPie · 05-07-2019, 03:45 PM

If people want a card that PWCC is selling, they are going to bid on it. They aren't going to give a damn that a '52 Mantle that they could never afford anyway was once soaked to spruce it up and wasn't disclosed in the auction description.

SaveMeTheGum · 05-07-2019, 03:47 PM

For me, PWCC is stained with this, and I will never buy from them or use their services. Buying from a consignor never quite felt right anyways -- with all the shilling etc. Now, to me, they are just a front for the seedy scumbag fraudsters to dump their trash while hiding behind "as long as PSA agrees the card is unaltered". Plenty of other places to put my money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

If people want a card that PWCC is selling, they are going to bid on it. They aren't going to give a damn that a '52 Mantle that they could never afford anyway was once soaked to spruce it up and wasn't disclosed in the auction description.

I very much disagree with this. I don't trust the product, so I will not be bidding.

GatorPie · 05-07-2019, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

For me, PWCC is stained with this, and I will never buy from them or use their services. Buying from a consignor never quite felt right anyways -- with all the shilling etc. Now, to me, they are just a front for the seedy scumbag fraudsters to dump their trash while hiding behind "as long as PSA agrees the card is unaltered". Plenty of other places to put my money.

I very much disagree with this. I don't trust the product, so I will not be bidding.

I think it's great you are exercising your freedom of choice. You are in the minority.

StraWMyerS · 05-07-2019, 03:53 PM

After reading the thread, I'm still confused. Are products with GMO essentially the same as those without, or no?

PWCC if you would help clear this up for me, I'd consider doing business again in the future.

rcmb3220 · 05-07-2019, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

It’s great to see people over and over again say “nothing is going to happen”, “we’ve seen this before”, “nobody cares”.

This saga is in its infancy. You think they got Mastro in six months? Just make sure you’re on the right side of history when this unfolds.

You overestimate how much people care. Better yet, in a vote by dollars, the amount of caring dollars is laughable small. I’m all for transparency and I hope to see every one of these cards brought to light and put back in the faces of the grading companies, “conservationists” and whoever else is in on it.

I hope you’re right, though. Again, I will point to WIWAG.

ark8085 · 05-07-2019, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

I think it's great you are exercising your freedom of choice. You are in the minority.

I guess smart people are in the minority, go ahead purchase away.

Triple B · 05-07-2019, 05:46 PM

We had card companies exposed as having used fake game used jerseys and people said the sky was falling and that the hobby was doomed. NOTHING happened. Everyone got slaps on the wrist, collectors turned a blind eye and off we went again.

With the amount of money people have invested in cards, grading and all of the fun stuff in between, all of the guilty parties will end up with egg on their faces, slaps on their wrists, possibly with new company names (or possibly not) and off we'll go once again.

I suspect that the wrong or right side of history will be completely irrelevant.

monkeymcgee · 05-07-2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple B

We had card companies exposed as having used fake game used jerseys and people said the sky was falling and that the hobby was doomed. NOTHING happened. Everyone got slaps on the wrist, collectors turned a blind eye and off we went again.

Did GU card values not go into the toilet? I seem to remember a sizable drop when people learned about the player worn scam, fake GU, and patch faking.

cking · 05-07-2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Not with the current pricing and turnaround times, no. You can't expect things to be caught when a grader only has a few minutes with a card, no matter how good he is or how much he makes.

This is so lame. And such a cop out.

That is such a social media day and age type of answer.

So because PSA has alot of work to do that absolves them of doing the work properly?

PSA loves people like you. You pay them to do something. They do it wrong and you just say "no problem, all good"

mnvikingstwins · 05-07-2019, 06:02 PM

And still duck and cover. Nice of them to engage in conversation after a meaningless essay

GatorPie · 05-07-2019, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cking

This is so lame. And such a cop out.

That is such a social media day and age type of answer.

So because PSA has alot of work to do that absolves them of doing the work properly?

PSA loves people like you. You pay them to do something. They do it wrong and you just say "no problem, all good"

Are you drunk? I was just making a point that graders are not given enough time to look at the cards.

Sober up.

ThoseBackPages · 05-07-2019, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Are you drunk? I was just making a point that graders are not given enough time to look at the cards.

Sober up.

he is drunk on the tears of slab-collectors.
the man has hated slabs for a long long time and is rejoicing

PatchSentinel · 05-07-2019, 06:22 PM

I wouldn't expect any seller or reseller to check every single slab that goes through their doors, but where it gets tricky is that if you're selling cards as "investments," and specifically so, then the question of fiduciary responsibility comes to my mind, at least. I am not, but if I was, a client who had millions and wanted to put my money to work in any company's services, I'd definitely want to know what steps are being taken to prevent me from buying an altered card, regardless if the grading companies missed it.

It's not realistic in 100% of all cases, but perhaps a preemptive WorthPoint check on big-money cards might be a good idea.

05-07-2019, 05:46 PM	#144
Triple B Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Toronto Posts: 6,253	We had card companies exposed as having used fake game used jerseys and people said the sky was falling and that the hobby was doomed. NOTHING happened. Everyone got slaps on the wrist, collectors turned a blind eye and off we went again. With the amount of money people have invested in cards, grading and all of the fun stuff in between, all of the guilty parties will end up with egg on their faces, slaps on their wrists, possibly with new company names (or possibly not) and off we'll go once again. I suspect that the wrong or right side of history will be completely irrelevant. __________________ Wanted Dead or Alive! 1. 1997 Bowman's Best Jose Cruz, Jr Atomic Refractor Autograph 2. 1997 SPx Jose Cruz, Jr. Grand Finale /50

05-07-2019, 01:30 PM	#126
mnvikingstwins Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 42,197 ski_4 ski_4

05-07-2019, 02:14 PM	#129
KhalDrogo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 41,387	It’s great to see people over and over again say “nothing is going to happen”, “we’ve seen this before”, “nobody cares”. This saga is in its infancy. You think they got Mastro in six months? Just make sure you’re on the right side of history when this unfolds.

05-07-2019, 03:45 PM	#138
GatorPie Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,199	If people want a card that PWCC is selling, they are going to bid on it. They aren't going to give a damn that a '52 Mantle that they could never afford anyway was once soaked to spruce it up and wasn't disclosed in the auction description.

05-07-2019, 03:53 PM	#141
StraWMyerS Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Clifton Park, NY Posts: 3,144 jnrmint511	After reading the thread, I'm still confused. Are products with GMO essentially the same as those without, or no? PWCC if you would help clear this up for me, I'd consider doing business again in the future.

05-07-2019, 06:02 PM	#147
mnvikingstwins Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 42,197 ski_4 ski_4	And still duck and cover. Nice of them to engage in conversation after a meaningless essay

05-07-2019, 06:22 PM	#150
PatchSentinel Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,257	I wouldn't expect any seller or reseller to check every single slab that goes through their doors, but where it gets tricky is that if you're selling cards as "investments," and specifically so, then the question of fiduciary responsibility comes to my mind, at least. I am not, but if I was, a client who had millions and wanted to put my money to work in any company's services, I'd definitely want to know what steps are being taken to prevent me from buying an altered card, regardless if the grading companies missed it. It's not realistic in 100% of all cases, but perhaps a preemptive WorthPoint check on big-money cards might be a good idea.