Group sub wrongly taken - Felony Theft

[DetroitFan14]

Also, I will say, I don’t care how many cards you submit… it’s extremely hard to fathom mistaking such a large submission as your when it is in-fact not. I’m not saying it’s 100% impossible, but really hard to fathom.

[Cardwax]

Originally Posted by DetroitFan14

Also, I will say, I don’t care how many cards you submit… it’s extremely hard to fathom mistaking such a large submission as your when it is in-fact not. I’m not saying it’s 100% impossible, but really hard to fathom.

I would know damn well if a sub was or wasn’t mine. You just know these things.

[le14]

Sucks. Don’t blame you for wanting to take something right now. Anxiety/etc isn’t worth it but this kind of stuff needs to be aired out as well.

No way you don’t know what your subbing if this is your business and livelihood. Combined with saying you keep a accurate spreadsheet (with round numbers) of the sold prices but NOT the actual cards subbed? Come on.

Nice that KK and RSB made statements but they shut off comments and don’t want to respond here as well.

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by DetroitFan14

Definitely.

Let this all be a lesson learned.

1) Absolutely paramount to track every card you sub, group sub or otherwise. But especially group subs.

2) if you’re not satisfied with a proposed resolution, don’t take the offer. I understand it’s easier for someone to say on the outside looking in, but it opens a can of worms. Even if not the case, which I don’t believe it to be here, it can be perceived that OP is simply out for blood just for the sake of doing so despite “being made whole”.

Definitely understand how this situation in the eyes of the OP has evolved, especially now in light of video proof which concretely documents sale prices greater than compensated.

I guess I don't see it this way.

1. The lesson learned is to not track your cards (or say you don't track your cards) because that's the excuse Redbeard is using to defend himself from taking and selling $14k in cards that weren't his. All us little guys track our cards and refresh the damn PSA pop report daily but that didn't matter in this situation.

And 2. I think it's 100% OK for OP to take a settlement to ensure he gets something and then still put both KK and Redbeard on blast for terrible business practices and quite possibly lying about big time theft, respectively. I'm pretty sure no one here thinks OP is out for blood with this information besides potentially followers of KK or Redbeard.

Maybe KK and Redbeard were super cordial and easy to work with on this situation but I'd want to spend the least amount of time working with them to get my money back before they just pull everything out and say "sue me".

[Cardwax]

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Yes. I'm not sure why you're posting this as groundbreaking information. I specified this in my original post.
The $14k was an agreed upon settlement which clearly wasn't ideal at the least. I WANT MY CARDS BACK!!!
Redbeard also only ponied up $10k and KK then had to come out of pocket $4k.
What a solid guy Redbeard is huh?

This is it. This is the whole point. And if they really wanted to make it right they would’ve made sure you got your cards if they had to go out and purchase each and every one of them. Sorry this happened man. You were straight victimized and I hope you push this with the authorities. It’s a crime. And until people have to start paying some real consequences, it’s not going to stop.

[BRob1]

he did about as well as he could have possibly done with the settlement of 14k and 9 cards. he’d never get all 136 cards back, that’s not how the law works. he would get compensated fmv. if it went to court each side would need an expert witness to establish fwv. when you add attorney fees and witness fees he came our way ahead of where he would otherwise.

as i understand it he said conservative fmv was 17.6 and he got 14k and 9 cards back. not as good as having the cards, but once the cards were sold that was no longer an option.


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[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Yes. I'm not sure why you're posting this as groundbreaking information. I specified this in my original post.
The $14k was an agreed upon settlement which clearly wasn't ideal at the least. I WANT MY CARDS BACK!!!
Redbeard also only ponied up $10k and KK then had to come out of pocket $4k.
What a solid guy Redbeard is huh?

Then you should not have agreed to a settlement.

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

Then you should not have agreed to a settlement.

Do you think getting lawyers involved would've gotten OP his cards returned OR netted OP more money?

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by TSonn

Do you think getting lawyers involved would've gotten OP his cards returned OR netted OP more money?

Cards back? No

More money? Probably would have netted him close to a value that was correct at the time. No it would not have gotten him future value though.

[Cardwax]

What fun would the social media side of the hobby be without your reputation? Blows my mind that people are so willing to do things like this.

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

Cards back? No



More money? Probably would have netted him close to a value that was correct at the time. No it would not have gotten him future value though.

Maybe I have an incorrect assumption about lawyer fees - thankfully I've never had to use one.

I'd guess even if he got a value of $17k through the legal method that he'd probably have to pay at least 15% in fees which would get him back to the $14k anyway.

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[PepperDean]

Originally Posted by TSonn

I guess I don't see it this way.

1. The lesson learned is to not track your cards (or say you don't track your cards) because that's the excuse Redbeard is using to defend himself from taking and selling $14k in cards that weren't his. All us little guys track our cards and refresh the damn PSA pop report daily but that didn't matter in this situation.

And 2. I think it's 100% OK for OP to take a settlement to ensure he gets something and then still put both KK and Redbeard on blast for terrible business practices and quite possibly lying about big time theft, respectively. I'm pretty sure no one here thinks OP is out for blood with this information besides potentially followers of KK or Redbeard.

Maybe KK and Redbeard were super cordial and easy to work with on this situation but I'd want to spend the least amount of time working with them to get my money back before they just pull everything out and say "sue me".

Also, if this kind of stuff is happening in the hobby it does a disservice to everyone to keep it quiet. KK runs one of the largest group subs. Redbeard is a prominent dealer who organizes some of Florida's biggest shows. People in the hobby have the right to know who they are dealing with before they engage in business with said person. I mean just look at Ebay, which has a literal system designed around this very idea. Otherwise, there's nothing to hold ill-intentioned (or negligent) people accountable, and from preventing this sort of thing from happening again.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by TSonn

Maybe I have an incorrect assumption about lawyer fees - thankfully I've never had to use one.

I'd guess even if he got a value of $17k through the legal method that he'd probably have to pay at least 15% in fees which would get him back to the $14k anyway.

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Or he would have gotten $17,000 back with the attorney fees split between the other two involved (or one.)

If he didnt like the deal, I would not have agreed to it. He could have filed a claim against the submitter by himself and been covered at the declared value at the least.

[panamamyers]

Sorry if already asked, but if this other guy was subbing all these same cards, where are his subs?
Wouldn't there be another 44 Morant stickers sitting around over there?

I can NOT believe people send their cards to group sitters.
Said it before and here is a good opportunity to say again. A real company like PSA has hundreds of checks and balances and cameras all over the place and people still suspect they are switching out cards.
You think some loser in his garage doesn't switch out cards every now and then or pull stuff like this?

These are the losers waiting in the aisle at Target all day or are related to them at least.

[imbluestreak23]

I met Kyle (kk) at the national. Did a $5k deal. The guy was very honest about the cards condition. Had a good conversation, says he even watches my channel and is a subscriber. Have a vid of our interaction in my national recap vid. Overall seemed like a solid dude who made an honest mistake and is trying to make it right. In reading all of this, the red bird guy seems way out of line.

I don’t sub nearly as much as he claims but I still keep records of every purchase for ROI / tax reasons. I’d think the more you buy, the more you’d want to keep track of.

KK made the mistake, but it just seems crazy that the red guy receives inventory that he doesn’t recall submitting in his own, not has a record of it.

I echo comments from an earlier poster, any serial numbered cards in the lot?

[BRob1]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

Or he would have gotten $17,000 back with the attorney fees split between the other two involved (or one.)

If he didnt like the deal, I would not have agreed to it. He could have filed a claim against the submitter by himself and been covered at the declared value at the least.

When he keeps saying he didn’t like the deal it’s because as he keeps saying he wants the original cards instead. He’s gotta get that out of his head unfortunately. The court would never make someone reacquire all the cards, they’d decide what they were worth and order him compensated that amount.

He got 9 of the cards back along with $14k. He needs to go buy as many Haalands as he can now or whatever he wants back, as it seems he basically got his valuation of the lot, depending on the value of the 9 cards he got back.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by BRob1

When he keeps saying he didn’t like the deal it’s because as he keeps saying he wants the original cards instead. He’s gotta get that out of his head unfortunately. The court would never make someone reacquire all the cards, they’d decide what they were worth and order him compensated that amount.

He got 9 of the cards back along with $14k. He needs to go buy as many Haalands as he can now or whatever he wants back, as it seems he basically got his valuation of the lot, depending on the value of the 9 cards he got back.

If he thinks they are going to go up in value. Buy a large chunk now and sit on them with the money he took in. You are right 100%.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

I met Kyle (kk) at the national. Did a $5k deal. The guy was very honest about the cards condition. Had a good conversation, says he even watches my channel and is a subscriber. Have a vid of our interaction in my national recap vid. Overall seemed like a solid dude who made an honest mistake and is trying to make it right. In reading all of this, the red bird guy seems way out of line.

I don’t sub nearly as much as he claims but I still keep records of every purchase for ROI / tax reasons. I’d think the more you buy, the more you’d want to keep track of.

KK made the mistake, but it just seems crazy that the red guy receives inventory that he doesn’t recall submitting in his own, not has a record of it.

I echo comments from an earlier poster, any serial numbered cards in the lot?

An honest dude with an honest mistake??? Your idea of "honest dude" is different than mine. Did you read how he handled things when someone submitted him a Joe Namath rookie card?

[FBallHobbies]

So RB is saying he bought Ja stickers like OP

I doubt he bought all of them at shows. Better yet, I doubt he bought any at all

If he did (which I doubt), especially online, let's see emails of winning them. Or even paypal transactions.

I wonder if the other sponsors to his shows know now that he is a low life POS

[lauriontj]

I have done high end deals ($5k+) with Redbeardsportscards and will continue to do high end deals with him. He is 100% trustworthy in my eyes.

[panamamyers]

Originally Posted by BRob1

When he keeps saying he didn’t like the deal it’s because as he keeps saying he wants the original cards instead. He’s gotta get that out of his head unfortunately. The court would never make someone reacquire all the cards, they’d decide what they were worth and order him compensated that amount.

He got 9 of the cards back along with $14k. He needs to go buy as many Haalands as he can now or whatever he wants back, as it seems he basically got his valuation of the lot, depending on the value of the 9 cards he got back.

I believe his valuation was way too low. He likely should have added in the time and energy that would be needed to buy back the exact cards that he lost. He's going to have to wait.now and hope that each of those cards goes back on sale somehow and then try to negotiate what is likely some astronomical buy it now price. It's going to take forever to build the collection back for someone that was not looking to sell the cards. If he wanted to sell them, great. If he wants them all, I'd expect at least 25% premium above what the valuation is.

[TheBlake58]

Originally Posted by FBallHobbies

So RB is saying he bought Ja stickers like OP

I doubt he bought all of them at shows. Better yet, I doubt he bought any at all

If he did (which I doubt), especially online, let's see emails of winning them. Or even paypal transactions.

I wonder if the other sponsors to his shows know now that he is a low life POS

Since Redbeard subs thru KK, it would be fairly easy to pull up his past subs to prove he submitted the EXACT SAME CARDS AS ME. If anything, KK could pull this information up.

I want everyone to also realize and take note, it seems KK is being as upfront as possible, while Redbeard is dancing around the issue and even playing victim. Very telling.
Redbeard, in his statement, said he has no affiliation with KK. KK then said Redbeard was an EMPLOYEE of his. Someone is lying and its not KK.

[Boo]

Redbeard, just sounds like a tool

[shrevecity]

OP when you made the agreement did you sign or state in any email that this was basically a final agreement?

[TheBlake58]

Originally Posted by shrevecity

OP when you made the agreement did you sign or state in any email that this was basically a final agreement?

No I did not.