PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[HarryLime]

These guys tend to pretty much stay within their comfort zones. Moser got caught doing '48 Leafs years ago and here he is still doing '48 Leafs. Mervin just worked on the '30s Goudeys. Moser also destroyed the '55 Bowman set after discovering how to perfectly replicate the factory cuts as well as reglossing the surfaces. I'm simply saying I think these dbags tend to find a few sets that they know they can 100% get away with and focus on them (yes, I know there will be examples otherwise, I'm just speaking in general).

While I believe the scope of this is larger than what we know now I don't believe it's "everything."

Arthur

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by cking

I dont want grading to go away. I just want it to be accurate and correct.

You are paying them to provide a service. Is it asking so much to expect them to do it right?

When their opinion could mean the diffrence between a card being worth $100...$500 or $5000 then yes, I expect accuracy.

Would you like to know what baffles me the most in all of this? The people who grade alot of cards should be the ones who are the most concerned with cards being graded properly.

Yet you guys seem to care the least out of everyone. I dont follow that.

You guys are the ones who should be banging down the door of the grading companies and telling them to get their act together.

Dont you want to know for sure that the cards you spend your hard earned money on are exactly what they should be and not some trimmed up fraudulent card?

Some of you guys make it seem like we are being out of line because we expect accuracy when it comes to graded cards.

The grading companies are claiming to be experts who can detect altered cards when in fact they cannot. That is whats out of line. Yet you guys are ok with that.

I find that incredibly odd.

Who are you talking about and how do you know what their collection comprises of?

You keep accusing people of "protecting their investment" when you have absolutely no idea if they even have graded cards in their collection. We get it, you think grading is a scam. We heard you the first sixty times.

Arthur

[rainmaker]

these guys need to be shunned by the entire hobby. psa, auction houses... you name it a global blackball is the only answer. 48 leaf, goudeys, 55 bowman. these are top sets in our hobby and they are #@#@#@#@ing destroying them.

[pspa123]

I always thought Goudeys had distinctive edges (beveled top edge for example) and it was relatively easy to detect trimming. Or have people learned to replicate them?

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

these guys need to be shunned by the entire hobby. psa, auction houses... you name it a global blackball is the only answer. 48 leaf, goudeys, 55 bowman. these are top sets in our hobby and they are #@#@#@#@ing destroying them.

Also 1952 Topps Look 'N See is a Moser favorite, a high-dollar example of which I will be posting shortly.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

To point #1, I enjoy Ferrari's and mansions, but sadly I'm priced out. Maybe I should join forums for those and complain about the people who have these things.



To point #2, good point.

But the two points correlate.

If corruption (point #2) is what’s pricing people out of the cardboard market (point #1) then any real collector should be concerned.

[superdan49]

1952 Topps Look 'N See #90 Benedict Arnold PSA 8 to PSA 9


Sold on 4/3/2017 as a PSA 8 by eBay seller triplesssinc to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $52
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2018 as a PSA 9 for $3,050
Value gain of $2,998!

This Benedict Arnold shows how a single grade jump can be worth thousands of dollars to the expert trimmer. This card in a PSA 9 did not exist before Moser destroyed a PSA 8 to create one. He trimmed the left border and I believe the right border to "fix" the centering, which was the card's only discernible flaw.

To prove these are the same card, I highlighted the two common print marks in purple. The green rectangle shows the drastic left border cut. The yellow arrows show the cut pattern of the top and bottom borders, which are identical. I've also included a detail of the bottom edge so you can see the pattern is exactly the same from PSA 8 to PSA 9. The cards are the same.


PSA 8: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...psa-1860923421
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1629886

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by cking

I dont want grading to go away. I just want it to be accurate and correct.



You are paying them to provide a service. Is it asking so much to expect them to do it right?



When their opinion could mean the diffrence between a card being worth $100...$500 or $5000 then yes, I expect accuracy.



Would you like to know what baffles me the most in all of this? The people who grade alot of cards should be the ones who are the most concerned with cards being graded properly.



Yet you guys seem to care the least out of everyone. I dont follow that.



You guys are the ones who should be banging down the door of the grading companies and telling them to get their act together.



Dont you want to know for sure that the cards you spend your hard earned money on are exactly what they should be and not some trimmed up fraudulent card?



Some of you guys make it seem like we are being out of line because we expect accuracy when it comes to graded cards.



The grading companies are claiming to be experts who can detect altered cards when in fact they cannot. That is whats out of line. Yet you guys are ok with that.



I find that incredibly odd.

Exactly. People buying graded cards are overpaying for an opinion that has a higher error level than they expect...and/or perhaps they’re overpaying because the crowd/everyone else is doing it and are feeling safe as a result.

The hobby wants a service (completely accurate grading) the grading companies can’t deliver, but will pretend they can in order to realize maximum value. Its not unlike prospectors wanting a prospect (a perfect prospect) that doesn’t exist, but pretending he does in order to maximize value. Common theme: maximizing value on something that doesn’t exist and probably never could.

I expect even more bad actors to submit bad cards now which will only make the situation worse because so many are blind or don’t care. Eventually the bubble bursts.

[pspa123]

That card is seriously short side to side.

[MIRRABB]

holy crap that's a big percentage return for one trimjob

[ThoseBackPages]

one day closer to my 52T Mantle!

[cking]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

We get it, you think grading is a scam. We heard you the first sixty times.

Arthur

You are going to hear it 60 more so strap in. Or use the ignore feature. Thats what it is there for.

You voice your opinion over and over on this subject. Why cant I? Becaus you dont agree with my opinion?

Oh well. Thats life. Not everyone agrees on everything.

TBP keeps posting 'grading is a scam' over and over and over. Yet thats ok,right?

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I agree that some members here overstate the problem, but you are understating the risk here.

A group of a few guys have uncovered a few hundred trimmed or altered cards:
1) Since January alone
2) In their free time
3) Using only Worthpoint, Google, and eBay

Can you imagine if there were a team of say a dozen of us with working full-time at this for a year and if we had access to submission data from these known trimmers? I guarantee in the course of such an investigation, the names of other trimmers would be outed too. The results would be sobering news for PWCC and PSA, and for anyone who is downplaying this scandal.

Yes, that’s the thing: the “fraud rate” among recent slabs could be approaching the normal “error rate”.

Assuming no more bad actors appear (which seems unlikely given the potential windfalls involved...but maybe new countermeasures could be developed to counter them), there could be a bad slab rate of greater than one in every twenty slabs.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by MIRRABB

holy crap that's a big percentage return for one trimjob

Yes it is. This guy is a vintage cardboard expert. He knows what cards to seek out that can deliver huge payola if trimmed properly.

[ThoseBackPages]

i dont think anyone on here gets a larger erection then cking when something anti-slabs happens.

to his credit, he has been that way for as long as i can remember

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by superdan49

1952 Topps Look 'N See #90 Benedict Arnold PSA 8 to PSA 9


Sold on 4/3/2017 as a PSA 8 by eBay seller triplesssinc to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $52
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2018 as a PSA 9 for $3,050
Value gain of $2,998!

This Benedict Arnold shows how a single grade jump can be worth thousands of dollars to the expert trimmer. This card in a PSA 9 did not exist before Moser destroyed a PSA 8 to create one. He trimmed the left border and I believe the right border to "fix" the centering, which was the card's only discernible flaw.

To prove these are the same card, I highlighted the two common print marks in purple. The green rectangle shows the drastic left border cut. The yellow arrows show the cut pattern of the top and bottom borders, which are identical. I've also included a detail of the bottom edge so you can see the pattern is exactly the same from PSA 8 to PSA 9. The cards are the same.


PSA 8: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...psa-1860923421
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1629886

Benedict Arnold. Dang, that's ironic.

[chezball]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i dont think anyone on here gets a larger erection then cking when something anti-slabs happens.

to her credit, he has been that way for as long as i can remember

fixed it for you.

[dmanrico]

Someone needs to show up with 1000s of fliers at the National and handout to everyone summarizing what is going on with these crooks. Maybe we could finally get some attention on this. I’d help fund that.

[superdan49]

1952 Topps Look 'N See #126 Leif Ericson PSA 7 to PSA 9


Sold on 4/11/2016 as a PSA 7 by eBay seller triplesssinc to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $51
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 10/29/2017 as a PSA 9 for $856
Value gain of $805

This is yet another 1952 Topps Look 'N See that Moser trims into a very high grade. In this case, he simply trimmed the left edge of a Leif Ericson's #126 card, making a cool $800 for 10 minutes of work.

The arrow shows the bottom edge, which I've also enlarged to show detail. The cut pattern is the same. There is also one small print flaw on the detailed image that further proves the cards are one and the same.


PSA 7: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...psa-1810239911
PSA 9: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1569150

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

one day closer to my 52T Mantle!

you can have mine. I'm OUT.

Love those "Look N See" how to get your teeth kicked in! PSA 9, MINI.

This is soooo funny! yeah, there's just a few & who is buying this stuff? Mental Midgets?

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Yes, that’s the thing: the “fraud rate” among recent slabs could be approaching the normal “error rate”.

Assuming no more bad actors appear (which seems unlikely given the potential windfalls involved...but maybe new countermeasures could be developed to counter them), there could be a bad slab rate of greater than one in every twenty slabs.

No more bad actors appear, LOL. I want to do it now, just for fun...

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

these guys need to be shunned by the entire hobby. psa, auction houses... you name it a global blackball is the only answer. 48 leaf, goudeys, 55 bowman. these are top sets in our hobby and they are #@#@#@#@ing destroying them.

You guys are so funny today....Brent Mastro has built his reputation WITH them. PSA has embraced Brent Mastro, so there you go.

[corndog]

1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb RED PORTRAIT

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-1.5 on July 09, 2018 for $2123.23. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1686606
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-3 for an unknown amount on October 14, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1805502

The red circles on the back shows where the repair occured (obviously the staining was removed). It looks like the word 'Base' was torn and flipped over but still attached to the card. It was righted and apparently glued back although somewhat out of position. PSA???
Card was not trimmed and the front looks the same.

[hxcmilkshake]

Wow...maybe its a variation lol c'mon PSA

he probably doubled his money after fees, easily

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by corndog

1909-11 T206 Ty Cobb RED PORTRAIT

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-1.5 on July 09, 2018 for $2123.23. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1686606
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-3 for an unknown amount on October 14, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1805502

The red circles on the back shows where the repair occured (obviously the staining was removed). It looks like the word 'Base' was torn and flipped over but still attached to the card. It was righted and apparently glued back although somewhat out of position. PSA???
Card was not trimmed and the front looks the same.

Hahahahahaha any PSA white knights feel like coming in and defending this one?!?!?