BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Funny, most of the responses I've read say it takes more than pure luck to get the results that Joe received. From what I've read, it isn't even close. Maybe we're reading different messages.
Your basketball analogy sucks by the way. Comparing the skills to be the very best professional basketball player to being a professional card grader? Seriously?
Get back to us when you can show a grader making millions of dollars a year.

I said it was flawed, but ok.

Also, i think the threads have already proven that people have made a really good living submitting cards to TPGs and selling them after.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I understand 22 black labels in a sub is crazy.

When a member posts that Joe admitted he went 22/22 and I can't find the post, I will ask too see the post. If he said it, please show me. Bit If he didn't say it, then this member should not state it as a fact.

I don't have the time to go back and find the post. To my recollection, Joe admitted he went 3/3 on an order with Black Labels. He then said he did receive 8 in an order and 22 in an order but couldn't remember if those were part of a larger submission or not.

[Jamesebee]

Maybe this doesn't belong here, but I believe this year's National is going to be significantly more interesting on a few fronts...

-Skepticism over authenticity will increase the scrutiny with which buyers shop graded v. raw;
-Buyers who are not up to speed on the wealth of information BODA has helped to uncover will be caught unaware post-National;
-Modern and Vintage are both significantly impacted, but so are the auction houses and sellers seeking "restorable" or "conservable" lots
-Each and every booth with cards for sale ought to have an official position on the integrity of their collection, and to ensure prices reflect fair value regardless of what goes down

I could see many shops whose inventory or integrity is clouded at this point make a last gasp effort to clear their inventory and have it become someone else's problem. I could also see skepticism in integrity lead to fewer sales, a shift to negative attention towards buyers/graders/etc, and a shift towards sealed (non-buyback wax).

Or, most likely, not enough of a shift in attitude to actually influence a change this year.

But, oh, brother...a change is gonna come...

[chezball]

Originally Posted by lisu

No matter what Joe posts or anyone else posts, it won't change anyone's minds because people are standing around with their pitchforks. I already talked to someone at BGS today regarding this, and they backed up everything that Joe already posted. That obviously isn't enough for all you naysayers, so there's no point in having Joe spend more time defending himself. I have better things to do in my life than try to argue that the Earth is actually round to a bunch of people who think that it is flat.

Actually you look like the flat earther with the bold part.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

I said it was flawed, but ok.

Also, i think the threads have already proven that people have made a really good living submitting cards to TPGs and selling them after.

Funny, I haven't seen any of these other People who have made a really good living submitting cards to TPGs and selling them after brought up here concerning the high percentage of Black Labels they've received. I wonder why?

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I don't have the time to go back and find the post. To my recollection, Joe admitted he went 3/3 on an order with Black Labels. He then said he did receive 8 in an order and 22 in an order but couldn't remember if those were part of a larger submission or not.

I definitely saw the post where he said he went 3/3 "I will fully admit that I went 3/3 on the one order. It’s possible the other orders had more cards but I can’t say for sure."

But for the person who started this thread to state in a post that Joe admitted to going 3/3, 8/8, and 22/22 and they were not part of a larger batch.....that is just a plain LIE. And for everyone in here that is all about finding the truth of Joe's submissions, you should be just as concerned with the person who started this thread spreading a lie and misinforming people.

Now if someone finds me the post where joe said he went 22/22 and it was not part of a larger sub, I will gladly apologize for calling the OP a liar.

[tommyfro21]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

BG: With respect to Joe, he does work for us on a contract basis.



Joe: Yes, I work at Leaf and am proud to do so



BG: However, for me to fire an employee and risk a termination related lawsuit, the threshold of "evidence" will have to be high and more concrete than it is so far.



So which one is it? Is he an independent contractor or an actual employee?

Since laws vary state by state, I’m sure BG has to take appropriate steps when terminating an employee to ensure it is done properly, even if it is on a contractual basis. Some of it depends on how the contract is worded too.

I wouldn’t get too caught up on that being an issue. That will play out how it needs to when all is said and done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kyaa]

Hey all, pgisback may be rightfully banished, but let's not let others bury some of the new info revealed recently with inane arguments. Lisu's absurd argument of "I called BGS and they said nothing fishy" does not merit serious responses. It seems like every time there is more troubling infromation, a surge of defenders pops up to clog the thread.

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I really can't find where Joe said he went 22/22 and it wasn't part of a larger sub. I didn't find where he admitted that. If he did admit it, then I'd have the same opinion that he had an insider helping him.

Just show me where he said it. I've asked 3 times now and no one has shown me where he states this.

jr24ai3, I apologize if my words about this were confusing. Joe admitted going 3 for 3 on Black Labels. We also know he got 22 in a row, consecutively numbered. The 22 may well have been a part of a larger sub--but even if it was 22/50 or 22/80 that'd still be a huge outlier since 2018 Leaf Metal cards only have about a 10% Black Label rate on the whole, a huge chink of which are Joe's. Your question has been answered. Please stop. If you want more info about Joe's subs you can ask him to share it.

There are much greater concerns than whether Joe went 22/22 or 22/50, such as...

Originally Posted by HBMC

I'm more concerned that one of the cards Joe had slabbed (the Mookie Chrome Update), has been sold by Joe for $200, re-sold by a Mookie collector in Maine (I presume they are as they have bought and sold a lot of Mookie cards, including other BL's that Joe had slabbed) for a little over 1/10th the original sale price, then it was re-sold by a seller from New Jersey who routinely buys, sells and bids on cards Joe has had graded (and currently has some for sale now) and is in the hands of a seller who has multiple Black Labels Joe graded and has it listed for more than it sold for the first time.

Something is very off about this entire situation.

Absolutely. Let's keep focusing on the core issues and finding more supporting evidence.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I definitely saw the post where he said he went 3/3 "I will fully admit that I went 3/3 on the one order. It’s possible the other orders had more cards but I can’t say for sure."

But for the person who started this thread to state in a post that Joe admitted to going 3/3, 8/8, and 22/22 and they were not part of a larger batch.....that is just a plain LIE. And for everyone in here that is all about finding the truth of Joe's submissions, you should be just as concerned with the person who started this thread spreading a lie and misinforming people.

Now if someone finds me the post where joe said he went 22/22 and it was not part of a larger sub, I will gladly apologize for calling the OP a liar.

Yeah, I don’t recall Joe ever admitting that. I believe he admitted to the number of BLs but couldn’t recall if there were other cards in the sub.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Hey all, pgisback may be rightfully banished, but let's not let others bury some of the new info revealed recently with inane arguments. Lisu's absurd argument of "I called BGS and they said nothing fishy" does not merit serious responses. It seems like every time there is more troubling infromation, a surge of defenders pops up to clog the thread.



jr24ai3, I apologize if my words about this were confusing. Joe admitted going 3 for 3 on Black Labels. We also know he got 22 in a row, consecutively numbered. The 22 may well have been a part of a larger sub--but even if it was 22/50 or 22/80 that'd still be a huge outlier since 2018 Leaf Metal cards only have about a 10% Black Label rate on the whole, a huge chink of which are Joe's. Your question has been answered. Please stop. If you want more info about Joe's subs you can ask him to share it.

There are much greater concerns than whether Joe went 22/22 or 22/50, such as...



Absolutely. Let's keep focusing on the core issues and finding more supporting evidence.

Nothing was confusing, you said "Even Joe has admitted that his small orders 3/3 Blacks, 8/8 Blacks, 22/22 Blacks, were not part of larger batches. So please stop suggesting that they were. Please, please be decent and stop clogging up the thread.".

You straight lied about him ADMITTING to going 8/8 and 22/22 and not being part of a larger batch. He never admitted it.

I'm all for you digging for the truth. Just don't lie.

EDIT: Now that my question has been answered, you won't hear me ask it again.

[pejc300]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I understand 22 black labels in a sub is crazy.

When a member posts that Joe admitted he went 22/22 and I can't find the post, I will ask too see the post. If he said it, please show me. Bit If he didn't say it, then this member should not state it as a fact.

I would like to please put this constant comment to rest, once and for all. Please listen to me carefully. No, Joe never said for certain that he went 22/22. He never said that, so you won't find out. What he did say, I have put below. I know you are a troll, and I am sorry to be feeding the troll (hopefully you will get the same treatment as pgisback), but if we all agree that the 22 consecutive black labels is one of the most serious allegations levied against Joe, he could AT LEAST look at that ONE submission to find out if it was a large group or not, right? I mean, 22 in a row is a huge number, and the most damning thing against him, surely he could AT LEAST take the 5 minutes to look up that one submission and then say, "Oh, I checked that one out. Yeah, I sent in 345 card in that one...they start and end with this serial number."

I mean, he remembered the 3/3 off the top of his head, right? How do you not remember 22? Look at his own quotes below:

I’ve said multiple times that I submit my very best, cleanest stuff in smaller batches and pay for faster turnaround times. I submit in smaller batches in hopes of doing better on grades. Perhaps it’s just a psychological thing but I feel like my chances of going 3/3, 8/10, 10/12, etc. are better than going, say, 80 for 100. Again, I have no proof but I like my chances of breaking things into smaller batches than 1 big one. So far I’ve done well that way. However, I do big orders also. If I don’t think a card is 10 quality or it’s a really cheap card then I put it in a bigger batch and often do no sub-grades to save time and money. I also occasionally submit with friends if I don’t have enough cards to get a discount so while not all of the cards I’ve graded are on my BGS account they are sold on my eBay account. I also occasionally do minimum grade orders but I have to pay even if the card doesn’t get slabbed so I try not to do many. I will fully admit that I went 3/3 on the one order. It’s possible the other orders had more cards but I can’t say for sure.

He says here himself that he reserves his BEST cards for SMALL orders and sends his "not 10 quality or really cheap cards" in bigger batches. So, by his own admission, if these 22 Black Label cards were in one of his large, hundreds of cards batches (which don't exist), then he got REALLY lucky because his large batches contain cards he don't think are 10 quality. And guess what else, he said in the large order he often does "no sub grades." Well, he did subgrades in the 22 black label submission, lol.

Do you follow?

The reason it looks like I’m getting X number of black labels “in a row” is because in every list of grades I’ve ever received BGS has always grouped black labels together. They do this because that’s the way the grades are fed into their label matrix for printing. Black labels are printed together, gold labels together, silver labels together, etc.

And again, just for the record, Joe is the only person out of the thousands of people on these boards to have his submissions grouped together by label. The only guy. Ever. In the history of BGS. Why?

[pejc300]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

What Axe do you have to grind? Geez.

Allow me to play devils advocate to those who have already made their minds up:

Does selecting cards which will GEM take skill, experience, luck, or all of it? Most of the responses here seem to think this is pure luck. While i see the point, it would take a great deal of skill/experience as well, no? I see a lot of responses saying "i never got those types of grades". Now ask yourself, are you experienced or skilled enough to match up with the best? I stink at basketball, but i would never expect my shooting percentage to be as good as Michael Jordan, or even a bench player in the NBA. Now i know that is a flawed comparison, but i digress...

I think too often, people are too quick to want to say "i told you so", or have a hot take reaction, and don't wait for all sides or facts. Covington high or Jesse Smollet anyone?

Now to give my actual opinion, i feel the evidence (as presented) points in the realm that there is some type of collusion or preferential treatment with BGS and Joe. That being said, if there were more cards submitted in these batches it might give the skill/experience counter more credit. I'll wait for Dan's findings before jumping to any further conclusions.

Feel free to continue with your pitchforks.

The axe I have to grind is that we are 60 pages in to this thing and someone come on here and says, "I talked to Beckett and they said everything is okay..." and wants to be taken seriously.

That is comedy at its finest.

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by 3XDAD

There only seems to be evidence coming from one side and delay tactics and non-answers from the other. If you want to prove your innocence in this matter I would imagine you would provide evidence of such. But no, only delays and no real information.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guys,
Patience is warranted here in my opinion. Joe gave Dan authorization 48 hours ago (which prior to that, Dan and I were discussing the best course of action to propose to Joe to allow him to satisfactorily address this). Dan has been busy and that has slowed the information flow to the boards. I am sure as soon as Dan has time, he will do what he needs to do.
BG

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Hey all, pgisback may be rightfully banished, but let's not let others bury some of the new info revealed recently with inane arguments. Lisu's absurd argument of "I called BGS and they said nothing fishy" does not merit serious responses. It seems like every time there is more troubling infromation, a surge of defenders pops up to clog the thread.

Absolutely. Let's keep focusing on the core issues and finding more supporting evidence.

We could all use some reserved opinions and less noise, but this comment doesnt make it seem like you are out for truth, but rather pushing your own desire to be correct.

I would prefer to see counter arguments, rather than 40 pages of the same people saying the same things over and over.

And since people get vilified as being a "defender" for not joining the mob, let me repeat that i also believe the evidence is pretty damning, but not complete. Would love to see Joe make more public or Dan post his findings.

[LEAF]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Joe could have settled this matter in an hour if he was innocent. Instead of writing his wall of words response, he could have posted screenshots of 1) his submission history and 2) screenshots of the results of each submission. It certainly would have taken a lot less time than it did for him to post mulitple times last week, including delaying hours before his wall of words.

If those results showed a percentage of Black Labels and 10s that was at least possibly in line with other BGS customers, I would have been the first to admit I jumped the gun. Instead, we've got nothing but silence from Joe/BGS, and deflection from Brian Gray.

So while I have a measure of respect for those of you trying to imagine how Joe might be innocent or making theorerical arguments about how Joe might be getting his 1 in a trillion results or why BGS numbers his orders differently, or why he grades low end, etc., please consider stepping back. If Joe and BGS won't mount a vigorous, evidence-based defense, they do not deserve your support.

Kyaa,
I wasnt gonna address this, but I am deflecting nothing.
On the contrary, I have worked with Dan to find the RIGHT way to address this on the boards for Joe. We discussed a wide range of options and with every option the answer ended up being "but the couple of guys on the boards will want more". Finally, it was decided releasing this account info to Dan was the best of the options. I am confident the primary antagonists here will never be happy, but the access he is providing is extraordinary and unprecedented.

I believe strongly the reasonable and rational will be able to extrapolate whatever they need to from the data. (I for one hope I fit the reasonable and rationale camp..)
BG

[ThoseBackPages]

im waiting for Dan

[pejc300]

I'll tell you what, we don't need to wait for Dan. Give me the login and password and I will report back within the hour.

[pejc300]

Can anyone on these boards provide a personal submission where all of the grades were lumped together? Anyone?

[JacobCYE]

Don't mind me just putting my book mark here

[DaRitz]

Originally Posted by pejc300

And again, just for the record, Joe is the only person out of the thousands of people on these boards to have his submissions grouped together by label. The only guy. Ever. In the history of BGS. Why?

I'll chime in to say that the 22/22 comments were bothering me, too, because I've been following the thread and couldn't remember anyone admitting or proving that he went 22/22.

As for the "grouped together by label"... Are we sure that he is "The only guy. Ever. In the history of BGS" to have his labels grouped this way? Has that been proven? Are there any other groups of Black Labels in order? Was BG from Leaf the only other person who mentioned that this happens or have others seen it too?

The thing I appreciate about the threads 3124508 (and some others) has started is that he not only says, "Here's a lot of smoke," but he preemptively answers all the upcoming questions with, "And here is the fire."

There's a lot of smoke in this WJC stuff. It all looks too coincidental. I can't dream up an explanation that is not nefarious on one or more parties. But words matter and the board would be well-served to stick to facts.

As far as I can tell, he didn't go 22/22 and we don't know how big that submission was. Perhaps no one has ever seen black labels all in numeric order, but do we know it's never done that way? I may have missed something on one or both of those topics, coming back and forth and trying to pick up where I left off...

I appreciate the work everyone is doing. I've never read a novel one post at a time, but this is as captivating as any book I've ever read... And there's no flipping to the end... we're reading in real-time.





Side note, regarding numbering: If I remember correctly, some of WJC's submissions had Pokemon or some sort of gaming cards interspersed within his submission. It seems like those weren't his cards? Has anyone found any explanation, from BGS or otherwise, of the seemingly odd and inconsistent numbering system? This seems like a big piece of the puzzle that is yet to be unlocked. If Beckett ever DID pull the blacks out to be numbered individually, would the rest of the order necessarily be in line with the rest of the submission? Or would those empty spaces be re-used later, and then the blacks all printed on their own numbers, completely separate from the other order? If the blacks were pulled out and printed numerically, (and that's a big if) then I really wouldn't expect those numbers to be sequential to the rest of the order.

[pejc300]

I just took a screenshot of my BGS orders. I timed myself. It took 3 minutes.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by LEAF

Guys,
Patience is warranted here in my opinion. Joe gave Dan authorization 48 hours ago (which prior to that, Dan and I were discussing the best course of action to propose to Joe to allow him to satisfactorily address this). Dan has been busy and that has slowed the information flow to the boards. I am sure as soon as Dan has time, he will do what he needs to do.
BG

Don't blame Dan for slow information flow. That is such BS. Joe has had the power to share his full submission history for almost a week. He is 100% responsible for the lack of information he has shared.

Originally Posted by LEAF

Kyaa,
I wasnt gonna address this, but I am deflecting nothing.
On the contrary, I have worked with Dan to find the RIGHT way to address this on the boards for Joe. We discussed a wide range of options and with every option the answer ended up being "but the couple of guys on the boards will want more". Finally, it was decided releasing this account info to Dan was the best of the options. I am confident the primary antagonists here will never be happy, but the access he is providing is extraordinary and unprecedented.

I believe strongly the reasonable and rational will be able to extrapolate whatever they need to from the data. (I for one hope I fit the reasonable and rationale camp..)
BG

Choosing some self-appointed person to look at whatever is in Joe's BGS account after 5 days is absolutely not the right way to address this on the boards. Nor are the others you have thrown out--a polygraph, regrading, etc. Thankfully, many people here are smart enough not to fall for it.

On the other hand, Joe's full submission history, purchase history, and sales history would be genuniely helpful. But you have not supported the release of that information. You won't even acknowledge that it would be helpful because you don't actually want all facts to come to light.

You are transparently trying to make this go away by peddling "ways for Joe's to prove his innocence" that wouldn't actually prove anything. You are ignoring overhwleming evidence like Joe's streaks of Black Labels and 10s, or Pop 1 Black Label or 10 on far too many cards, dismissing it as "circumstantial." And then lobbying to exonerate him with a freaking lie detector. The hypocrisy is appalling.

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by DaRitz

I'll chime in to say that the 22/22 comments were bothering me, too, because I've been following the thread and couldn't remember anyone admitting or proving that he went 22/22.

As for the "grouped together by label"... Are we sure that he is "The only guy. Ever. In the history of BGS" to have his labels grouped this way? Has that been proven? Are there any other groups of Black Labels in order? Was BG from Leaf the only other person who mentioned that this happens or have others seen it too?

The thing I appreciate about the threads 3124508 (and some others) has started is that he not only says, "Here's a lot of smoke," but he preemptively answers all the upcoming questions with, "And here is the fire."

There's a lot of smoke in this WJC stuff. It all looks too coincidental. I can't dream up an explanation that is not nefarious on one or more parties. But words matter and the board would be well-served to stick to facts.

As far as I can tell, he didn't go 22/22 and we don't know how big that submission was. Perhaps no one has ever seen black labels all in numeric order, but do we know it's never done that way? I may have missed something on one or both of those topics, coming back and forth and trying to pick up where I left off...

I appreciate the work everyone is doing. I've never read a novel one post at a time, but this is as captivating as any book I've ever read... And there's no flipping to the end... we're reading in real-time.





Side note, regarding numbering: If I remember correctly, some of WJC's submissions had Pokemon or some sort of gaming cards interspersed within his submission. It seems like those weren't his cards? Has anyone found any explanation, from BGS or otherwise, of the seemingly odd and inconsistent numbering system? This seems like a big piece of the puzzle that is yet to be unlocked. If Beckett ever DID pull the blacks out to be numbered individually, would the rest of the order necessarily be in line with the rest of the submission? Or would those empty spaces be re-used later, and then the blacks all printed on their own numbers, completely separate from the other order? If the blacks were pulled out and printed numerically, (and that's a big if) then I really wouldn't expect those numbers to be sequential to the rest of the order.

The problem is Joe basically refuted the whole "bigger order" argument when he said that he sends the best cards in small batches because he thinks he will get better grades that way.

[Jpayne7787]

I’ve subbed thousands of modern prizm cards, and have never received a single black label and only one BGS 10. Some people got it good

[StraWMyerS]

Originally Posted by Jpayne7787

I’ve subbed thousands of modern prizm cards, and have never received a single black label and only one BGS 10. Some people got it good

You sure you didn't have a sub come back with 8 black labels though...? Would be easy to forget. I mean after a while its just another order right? ... Ho hum.