HOF Pace Tracker

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by tyrith

Harold Baines peak season was 4.3 bWAR and he had a total of 38.8. The next lowest position player in bWAR whose career ended after 1980 was Jim Rice...at 47.7. His career bWAR is less Anthony Rizzo. The only reason why he even got to accumulation totals like he has is because he's 38th all time in plate appearances...three places ahead of Johnny Damon, who had 2700 hits, is only giving up 10 points of OBP and 30 of slugging, who played center field for most of his career, 400 SBs, and who didn't make it to a 2nd ballot on the BBWAA vote and who no one is arguing should be in the Hall.

I'm sorry, but Harold Baines being in the HOF is indefensible. Defense matters. Positions matter. The reasons why fWAR has Salvador Perez's career value as less than Will Smith's matter, even if can dispute the degree. And we are, fortunately, slowly developing at least a big chunk of the BBWAA electorate that isn't beholden to the arbitrary voting decisions of managers on Gold Gloves and players and fans on the ASG.

The Hall of Fame is not beholden to WAR. WAR is a framework. It’s a tool. It’s a singular statistic designed to measure a player’s value vs a replacement player. It’s not a Hall of Fame line of demarcation. It is not infallible. And it does not factor in to Veterans Committee selections.

Trust me, Baines belongs in the Hall. I could bore you with his case, but just trust me. He probably shouldn’t have gone in so quickly but he’s got a strong argument. I’m not sure why you are bringing up Defense as it relates to a DH. Clearly defense doesn’t matter for a DH. But for what it’s worth, before his knees gave out, Baines was a decent fielder with a very strong arm.

[awz50]

It always leads back to Baines

Sigh

[JWBlue]

I am coming around Sal Perez. I know the stats are borderline but I just think HOF player when I see him play. He has been so good for so long.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by JWBlue

I am coming around Sal Perez. I know the stats are borderline but I just think HOF player when I see him play. He has been so good for so long.

[livealoha]

What about Yordan Alvarez?

[MtnAg08]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Salvy’s stats / career is strikingly similar to that of Bill Freehan, 11 x AS, 5 x GG, if Silver Slugger would have been around in the early 60’s, Freehan would have received his fair share. Both were World Series winning catchers.

I've made that exact comp on here before. Definitely am curious if Freehan will get a serious look by one of the vet committees down the line.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by livealoha

What about Yordan Alvarez?

Full steam ahead right now, just needs to stay healthy

[49ersSF]

I still think Thurman Munson is the catcher that deserves entry the most.

7x All-Star
3x Gold Glove
Rookie of the Year
MVP
2x World Series Champ
.357 BA in 135 playoff at-bats w/12 extra base hits

career cut short at 32.

The first captain of the Yankees since Gehrig. One of the biggest and most recognizable superstars of the 1970's.

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

I still think Thurman Munson is the catcher that deserves entry the most.

7x All-Star
3x Gold Glove
Rookie of the Year
MVP
2x World Series Champ
.357 BA in 135 playoff at-bats w/12 extra base hits

career cut short at 32.

The first captain of the Yankees since Gehrig. One of the biggest and most recognizable superstars of the 1970's.

Agreed. He's a hall of famer

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[awz50]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

I still think Thurman Munson is the catcher that deserves entry the most.

7x All-Star
3x Gold Glove
Rookie of the Year
MVP
2x World Series Champ
.357 BA in 135 playoff at-bats w/12 extra base hits

career cut short at 32.

The first captain of the Yankees since Gehrig. One of the biggest and most recognizable superstars of the 1970's.

Did you know that his 1974 and 1975 seasons were the worst for catcher ever since world war 2? And he still won the gold glove. But his 1971 year was one of the best ever for a catcher, making only one error and throwing out 63% of runners. Funny how one injury can make you go from best to worst.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by Biohazarddfl

Agreed. He's a hall of famer

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Freehan should be in before him

[tyrith]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

The Hall of Fame is not beholden to WAR. WAR is a framework. It’s a tool. It’s a singular statistic designed to measure a player’s value vs a replacement player. It’s not a Hall of Fame line of demarcation. It is not infallible. And it does not factor in to Veterans Committee selections.

Trust me, Baines belongs in the Hall. I could bore you with his case, but just trust me. He probably shouldn’t have gone in so quickly but he’s got a strong argument. I’m not sure why you are bringing up Defense as it relates to a DH. Clearly defense doesn’t matter for a DH. But for what it’s worth, before his knees gave out, Baines was a decent fielder with a very strong arm.

No, please, go ahead, I want to hear. I don't see it - I'm not sure how you can separate him from a huge class of other players except for incremental stat accumulation - but the point of this is to learn.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by tyrith

No, please, go ahead, I want to hear. I don't see it - I'm not sure how you can separate him from a huge class of other players except for incremental stat accumulation - but the point of this is to learn.

Ok, you got it...

The Baines Of Our Existence

[RobDerhak]

He is a First Ballot dude. Nobody can argue that. I think this stuff and the 1 franchise career is what gets him in via vote despite his minor shortcomings as a player.

https://www.kmbc.com/article/kansas-...prise/61959702

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[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by itsbaytime

I guess agree to disagree. Lindor is currently worth less now than when he was in Cleveland. Explain that one? Also, we have the smallest stadium in the MLB (that is also under construction and even smaller than normal) and I am very aware of the attendance. Some of it has to do with longterm effects of the name change and the general hatred of the Dolans. If you look at his card prices they are definitely pretty healthy right now.

Market collapse.

[GabrielCards]

How about Kevin Brown? If Mike Mussina got in, why not Kevin Brown?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by GabrielCards

How about Kevin Brown? If Mike Mussina got in, why not Kevin Brown?

What's your selling point on that?

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by GabrielCards

How about Kevin Brown? If Mike Mussina got in, why not Kevin Brown?

Kevin Brown isn’t in because he’s in the Mitchell Report.

[GabrielCards]

Mussina: 270 wins, 153 losses, 3.68 ERA, 7 time top 6 Cy Young finisher, Postseason ERA 3.42.

Kevin Brown 211 Wins, 144 losses, 3.28 ERA, 5 times top 6 Cy Young finisher, Postseason ERA 4.19.

Pretty close, Mussina got in because of career win total, but Brown's ERA and 200+ wins is very good.

[Biohazarddfl]

Kevin Brown was juiced up. That's why he's not in. And rightfully so. Here comes the amphetamine crowd to be totally clueless and deflect

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[GabrielCards]

The amphetamine crowd to be clueless and deflect? What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

[brewtown107]

Some of us enjoy amphetamines

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Trust me, Baines belongs in the Hall.

Baines doesn't belong anywhere near the Hall....there are literally hundreds of guys with similar careers/stats....

He never got more than 6.1% on the writers ballot.

The aforementioned 38.8 WAR, tied for 577th with Magglio Ordonez, one spot behind Paul O'Neill and Russell Martin.

He had a career 121 OPS+, with only 1 season in the top eight of the AL

Ranks 669th in MVP shares....

[Biohazarddfl]

Originally Posted by GabrielCards

The amphetamine crowd to be clueless and deflect? What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

It means that a few members of the board will make excuses for the juice heads and say that in the 50s-70s players took uppers and that gave them an advantage too.

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[Handsome Wes]

Originally Posted by awz50

Freehan should be in before him

Freehan deserves a second look, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that he ever even appeared on a Vet Committee ballot.

He was probably squeezed out because he hit the BBWAA ballot at a time when Johnny Bench / Carlton Fisk / Gary Carter / Thurman Munson / Ted Simmons etc. were fresher in the minds than a catcher who shined as best in the league more than a decade earlier.

That being said, I think Munson should go in first. Buster Posey should go in as well. Yadier Molina, leaning towards yes. Then let's have a discussion about Salvador Perez and then figure out what to do with Bill Freehan.