$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein

[banjar]

OP, and Superdan, you are doing the lord's work here. I don't buy graded cards and I'm not in the market for the high-end stuff that trimmers make their money on. However. It still pisses me off that this stuff is so rampant in the hobby. And so I really appreciate that you are shining light on it, with well researched and documented examples.

These graders and consignment houses and industry insiders have no reason whatsoever to self-police. It's corporate America, end of story. Integrity is a word that people show on powerpoint slides to impress customers and investors, and that is the end of that word's significance. Integrity means absolutley nothing as long as the dollars keep rolling in. Of course they will make half-hearted gestures like sending their toadies to put out mealy-mouthed corporate responses on message boards like this, and pray that this calms you down. But nothing of any substance will actually change until there is a critical mass that is loud enough to really embarrass them. Only then, if consumer perception changes enough to impact their bottom line, will they take meaningful action to fix the problem.

So who knows if or when that will happen. Will your efforts be enough? Can't say. But what I can say is that there's a 100% chance that nothing will change if you sit down and shut up.

[banjar]

And just for the record - I had a good experience with Probstein recently. I won an auction that was obviously being shilled, by a bidder with zero feedback and 100% activity with Probstein, who upped his bid but $1 until he outbid me, and then canceled his bid....leaving me as the winner with exactly my high bid, without enough time left for me to cancel my bid. I pointed this out and they canceled my bid with no fuss. So have to at least give credit on this one.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by banjar

And just for the record - I had a good experience with Probstein recently. I won an auction that was obviously being shilled, by a bidder with zero feedback and 100% activity with Probstein, who upped his bid but $1 until he outbid me, and then canceled his bid....leaving me as the winner with exactly my high bid, without enough time left for me to cancel my bid. I pointed this out and they canceled my bid with no fuss. So have to at least give credit on this one.

Uhhh... not sure I’d consider this a “good experience”... you caught them cheating and they conceded?!? Feels like someone you’d never want to deal with again!


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[pewe]

Originally Posted by banjar

And just for the record - I had a good experience with Probstein recently. I won an auction that was obviously being shilled, by a bidder with zero feedback and 100% activity with Probstein, who upped his bid but $1 until he outbid me, and then canceled his bid....leaving me as the winner with exactly my high bid, without enough time left for me to cancel my bid. I pointed this out and they canceled my bid with no fuss. So have to at least give credit on this one.

Btw to raise the question many of us have been wrestling with... what is your bid strategy? Seems like you entered your high bid well before auction end? Any reason you don’t snipe (ie only bid your target price in last second)?


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[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by banjar

And just for the record - I had a good experience with Probstein recently. I won an auction that was obviously being shilled, by a bidder with zero feedback and 100% activity with Probstein, who upped his bid but $1 until he outbid me, and then canceled his bid....leaving me as the winner with exactly my high bid, without enough time left for me to cancel my bid. I pointed this out and they canceled my bid with no fuss. So have to at least give credit on this one.

always snipe

[banjar]

No, I didn't catch them cheating. I caught one of their consignment auctions being shilled by the seller - or one of his associates - and they made it right.

I know it is not possible to catch every shilled auction, especially on a $20 card, so I think it's fair to give them credit for responding positively to a legit complaint from a customer.

Originally Posted by pewe

Uhhh... not sure I’d consider this a “good experience”... you caught them cheating and they conceded?!? Feels like someone you’d never want to deal with again!


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[banjar]

I'm starting to buy in to this philosophy.

By the way you still need to sell me those rare Alomar cards!!!!!

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

always snipe

[banjar]

Yeah I'm a bit of a luddite. I don't have the time to overanalyze how and when I bid, so I've been submitting my max bid and just letting it ride, come what may. But the extra effort to sign up for a snipe service is looking like more of an attractive option. What's the best one? Is there a concensus?

Originally Posted by pewe

Btw to raise the question many of us have been wrestling with... what is your bid strategy? Seems like you entered your high bid well before auction end? Any reason you don’t snipe (ie only bid your target price in last second)?


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[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by gradedeflator

I find these threads so interesting.

if PSA is "accused" of being involved in nefarious activity, it seems like most folks stick up for them. and then quickly go on the offensive and attack BGS.
this whole thread started with specific PSA cards in question. Let's just focus on those cards. It gets weird when people then attack BGS, and individual people in the Dallas area. I get that people have had bad experiences with others but these types of threads can quickly turn into trolling efforts.

OP did a good job pointing out questionable PSA grades. I'm sure there are similar cards in BGS slabs. We'll get there eventually. but I for one could certainly do with less of th e "PSA is innocent but BGS is a conspirator" sentiment.

All card companies have their good and bad.

I use both companies for grading and currently have an order pending with PSA, but it is rather surprising to me how they seem to get more of a "pass" than BGS (or maybe that's my perception?)


As Reggie brought up earlier, PSA is happy to deem 1993 sp authentic jeters as "not proper size" (even right out of a pack) but can't detect OBVIOUS trimming. To me this just reeks of impropriety.


I really hope the change people are talking about coming is true.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by banjar

No, I didn't catch them cheating. I caught one of their consignment auctions being shilled by the seller - or one of his associates - and they made it right.

I know it is not possible to catch every shilled auction, especially on a $20 card, so I think it's fair to give them credit for responding positively to a legit complaint from a customer.

Probstein did the right thing here. All Probstein and PWCC can do is enforce shilling policies by banning offenders; they cannot completely stop consignor shilling on eBay.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by kyle1707

I have bought 3-4000 from pwcc

All Harper trout heritage psa 10 stuff

Weeeeee

Oh, my! I'd Worthpoint your whole collection if I were you and have PWCC on the hook for a ton of money once the investigation is complete. Focus on your paper stock cards first. SMH.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by gradedeflator

I find these threads so interesting.

if PSA is "accused" of being involved in nefarious activity, it seems like most folks stick up for them. and then quickly go on the offensive and attack BGS.

this whole thread started with specific PSA cards in question. Let's just focus on those cards. It gets weird when people then attack BGS, and individual people in the Dallas area. I get that people have had bad experiences with others but these types of threads can quickly turn into trolling efforts.

OP did a good job pointing out questionable PSA grades. I'm sure there are similar cards in BGS slabs. We'll get there eventually. but I for one could certainly do with less of th e "PSA is innocent but BGS is a conspirator" sentiment.

All card companies have their good and bad.

There's no clear evidence that PSA is directly involved with trimmers. Beckett however has invited at least 3 known trimmers/scammers to their industry summit (see comment #106). Not saying that PSA is completely innocent, but until they show proof that they are in bed with these scumbags, this is all we have.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

There's no clear evidence that PSA is directly involved with trimmers. Beckett however has invited at least 3 known trimmers/scammers to their industry summit (see comment #106). Not saying that PSA is completely innocent, but until they show proof that they are in bed with these scumbags, this is all we have.

PSA used to tweet about Burge's auctions listed under psa.gems and advertise its listings on its web site. PSA claims it can detect trimming and cannot. In bed or not, it cannot do what it set out to do. Not just a few cards that got by the goalie that its defenders always say like the guy who posted recently in a forum that they get it right over 99% of the time (the only thing they get right over 99% of the time is whether or not authentic, not the grade). PSA was on notice long ago that it could not detect trimmed cards, with the attitude that if it cannot tell if a card is trimmed then it is not trimmed. Well guess what, you have tenacious researchers here that nailed it on numbered cards which represent such a small portion of the trimmed cards graded as these modern cards are trimmed less than vintage as they are higher quality. I am sure the main researches on here can go through auction houses as well which deal less with modern numbered cards and surely find trimmed examples as well. PWCC is pointed out more I believe because he has the archives. I would bet all consignees knew they were taking cards from trimmers (PWCC included) but since the grading company graded them it would not matter. But with numbered cards, a mess has been created. Many more non-numbered cards were missed at higher values than those noted here. Trimmers, come on here and tell us of your greatest conquests - your top trimming gains.

[JMANIA]

And PSA had a close relationship with Mastro, the number one kingpin. Where is the list of all the cards Mastro admitted to having someone doctor for him? What happened to those graded cards? Nothing.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

There's no clear evidence that PSA is directly involved with trimmers. Beckett however has invited at least 3 known trimmers/scammers to their industry summit (see comment #106). Not saying that PSA is completely innocent, but until they show proof that they are in bed with these scumbags, this is all we have.

Not defending them, but was that an invite list or a list of people who attended? Was it invite only?

[joey_peapod]

Originally Posted by pryantexas

I am the current owner of this card. I bought it from PWCC via ebay on 8/30/18

I have reached out to Betsy and am very confident that they will take back the card and issue me a full credit.

If they don't, I will be pursuing legal action

(FYI I'm traveling and will be away from this thread for a bit but will update when I hear back from PWCC)

Do you still have this? Can you measure it for us?

[joey_peapod]

I don’t think you guys understand stand how skilled these cuts are. They for sure must meet tolerance. No way thousands of undersized cards are going through. They would have to hire an entire research division just to do what the OP has been doing. They just don’t have the time to do that on every single card.

[vwnut13]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

I don’t think you guys understand stand how skilled these cuts are. They for sure must meet tolerance. No way thousands of undersized cards are going through. They would have to hire an entire research division just to do what the OP has been doing. They just don’t have the time to do that on every single card.

So what you're saying is that grading is pointless, and people that pay a premium for graded cards are stupid?

[csmtampa]

Wow this is incredible work. Well done!

[I only pull for]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

There's no clear evidence that PSA is directly involved with trimmers. Beckett however has invited at least 3 known trimmers/scammers to their industry summit (see comment #106). Not saying that PSA is completely innocent, but until they show proof that they are in bed with these scumbags, this is all we have.

Don't forget that the owner of Beckett was just federally indicted, and I would bet his employees are a reflection of him.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ys-at-auction/

[pat10021839]

Originally Posted by corndog

Great job OP and an utter embarrassment for PSA.

Use your tools!
2.5" X 3.5" - It's not rocket science!

Hate to tell you this but the guys who do this walk around the major shows with a small machinist ruler to see if cards can be trimmed and stay at the proper measurements.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pat10021839

Hate to tell you this but the guys who do this walk around the major shows with a small machinist ruler to see if cards can be trimmed and stay at the proper measurements.

Not surprised that they do. Any tool can be used for bad or good.

[pryantexas]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

Do you still have this? Can you measure it for us?

Its packaged and headed back to PWCC

[fenwaykid]

When do we all start shorting PSA’s parent company?

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by pat10021839

Hate to tell you this but the guys who do this walk around the major shows with a small machinist ruler to see if cards can be trimmed and stay at the proper measurements.

The good guys do the same thing, so dont let this be a "tell" or an indication that just because they are measuring cards, they are up to no good.

I carry one to shows with me so I dont buy a trimmed card.

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