The Next Operation Bullpen Has Started

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

So, you did go to chase...

I don't even know what that is, but it seems important to you.

[MadduxTheGoat]

You might start seeing era of grading premiums. If you have an old psa slab done 20-25 years ago there should be a premium. Seems we’ve jumped the shark recently.

[fabiani12333]

It looks like the reason why this guy got taken down was because Fanatics pushed to investigate and uncover his operation:

Sources say Fanatics has worked closely with law enforcement over the past few years, including the Lemieux case and the fake autograph ring in McKinney, Texas, that was unraveled earlier this year. Fanatics also employs former FBI employees to aid in its fraud prevention.

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...ke-memorabilia

If this guy hadn't pushed so hard to forge Fanatics memorabilia and autographs, he might still be alive today. Don't mess with Rubes.

It also goes to show how easy it is to get away selling forged sports memorabilia and autographs in this space -- it took former FBI agents working for one of the big dogs in the industry for a brazen, lucrative operation to finally be stopped.

[cmixer]

BTW ... if you're new to the hobby, do yourself a favor and buy this book. I've had my copy for 10 years and consider it must-read.

[Mahomie]

"Every company I've touched is now my bitch"



Well, I guess that's one way of putting it...although, eating your own bullet is usually a sign of defeat.

He likely embellished some of the numbers, but the scope seems fairly large. It sounds like Fanatics chose to change their hologram a couple years ago solely because of him, so I'm definitely interested to learn more details. At some point, he also mentioned forging "yellow cards," which I'm assuming are those yellow HOF plaque cards.

The most recent forgery scandals that I can recall (other than Operation Bullpen) seem like peanuts now compared to this one:

- the Jason Kelce forgery ring
- the Anthony Tremayne Case

It's a constant game of cat and mouse. Not the first, and definitely won't be the last.

[JPSportshack]

Originally Posted by Mahomie

he also mentioned forging "yellow cards," which I'm assuming are those yellow HOF plaque cards.

I believe he's talking about those yellow plastic COA cards that Steiner used.

[auburn35]

Looking back at some previous memorabilia issues, in the 2018 this person was prohibited from operating a sports memorabilia business. Although in typical hobby fashion, he was somehow still allowed to sell the garbage on Amazon.

Obviously those restrictions and self-reporting of complaints weren't followed closely.

[JPSportshack]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Looking back at some previous memorabilia issues, in the 2018 this person was prohibited from operating a sports memorabilia business. Although in typical hobby fashion, he was somehow still allowed to sell the garbage on Amazon.

I suspect the reasoning is that Amazon provides a buyer with a better set of protections.

[boxbuster7]

NFTS are the future

just kidding

or maybe I'm not...who knows anymore

[fabiani12333]

We know who led the effort to take down this scammer -- it was Fanatics working with law enforcement. But in the Cllct article, it mentions the reason why:

Sources told cllct Lemieux upset many companies that had official autograph deals with players because Lemieux's outlet would offer prices that were much lower and yet still featured holograms of authentication.

An Aaron Judge ball, for example, would sell on Fanatics for $699. Lemieux's website at Mister Mancave would offer a Judge ball, with a Fanatics hologram, for $399.

It might not have been the forgeries so much as the undercutting of pricing from Fanatics and other big companies in the industry. I'll say it again -- if this guy hadn't been so brazen, he might have avoided this scandal and be alive today. It's usually the greed and arrogance that is the downfall of many scammers -- not so much the making of a buck from scamming.

[Snowcat]

In-person autograph collecting is the way to go. For deceased signatures, it's a crap shoot

[salsdali]

I thought there were easy ways for PSA, JSA to tell if a sig was auto-pen? I know years ago this was true but maybe the auto-pen tech is much better these days?

This all goes back to if PSA, JSA just did their due diligence like they are charging you for not much of this would have happened but they decided to cut corners and steal your money like usual. PSA, JSA are as much to blame as Lemieux.

[salsdali]

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by salsdali

I thought there were easy ways for PSA, JSA to tell if a sig was auto-pen? I know years ago this was true but maybe the auto-pen tech is much better these days?

This all goes back to if PSA, JSA just did their due diligence like they are charging you for not much of this would have happened but they decided to cut corners and steal your money like usual. PSA, JSA are as much to blame as Lemieux.

As long as a signature appears legitimate, it will presumably pass authentication. The authenticators don't actually know if a signature is legitimate or not -- they didn't witness it.

The forgers know that a sig just has to appear legitimate to pass -- if it looks good to seasoned authenticators, it will look good to the general public.

If an autopen can faithfully replicate hand strokes, how would anyone know the difference? Through forensic analysis? Get outta here.

[salsdali]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

If an autopen can faithfully replicate hand strokes, how would anyone know the difference? Through forensic analysis? Get outta here.

in the old days the autopen left a telltale "stutter" in the sig. The stutter was small but when looking at it thru even just a hand held loupe a person could notice it.

That was the achilles heal of the auto-pen, it was still just a machine and machines back then couldn't replicate the smooth motion a human hand can make.

Originally Posted by AI

Autopen signatures can be detected by looking for specific characteristics that differ from genuine, hand-signed autographs. These include even ink flow throughout the signature, a lack of variation in pen pressure, and the presence of shaky or wobbly lines, especially in longer strokes, which can result from the machine's movement. Additionally, abrupt pen stops and a lack of paper indentation, unlike the variations in pressure seen in hand-signed documents, can be indicators.

[backtothe50s]

When it comes to this latest scandal, how will it affect you collecting autographs from this point forward? Will you continue to but? More cautious on what you buy? Dumping/selling all of your autographs?, etc.

[hermanotarjeta]

I’ve only purchase autographed memorabilia once in my life ( UDA Jordan jersey), but why I’ve been hesitant about purchasing in the past holds true to this day.

I don’t trust or value anything I haven’t gotten in person myself in terms of memorabilia.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by backtothe50s

When it comes to this latest scandal, how will it affect you collecting autographs from this point forward? Will you continue to but? More cautious on what you buy? Dumping/selling all of your autographs?, etc.

Keep on buying. Scandals will always happen, just continue to be careful and do your research

[awz50]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

As long as a signature appears legitimate, it will presumably pass authentication. The authenticators don't actually know if a signature is legitimate or not -- they didn't witness it.

The forgers know that a sig just has to appear legitimate to pass -- if it looks good to seasoned authenticators, it will look good to the general public.

If an autopen can faithfully replicate hand strokes, how would anyone know the difference? Through forensic analysis? Get outta here.

Some 1st class fear mongering here and lack of education on autopen machines. No autopen in the world can 100% replicate what a human hand can do

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by awz50

Keep on buying. Scandals will always happen, just continue to be careful and do your research

How much research can you really do if you did not witness the autograph in person?

[backtothe50s]

Originally Posted by awz50

Keep on buying. Scandals will always happen, just continue to be careful and do your research

Bring a collector of 8x10 photos, would there be a concern now with photos duty PSA, Beckett and JSA authentication stickers on them? Seems like 8x10s would be a perfect target for forgets and auto pens, especially with the mention of fake JSA stickers in this latest scandal. Your thoughts on this please?

[awz50]

Originally Posted by backtothe50s

Bring a collector of 8x10 photos, would there be a concern now with photos duty PSA, Beckett and JSA authentication stickers on them? Seems like 8x10s would be a perfect target for forgets and auto pens, especially with the mention of fake JSA stickers in this latest scandal. Your thoughts on this please?

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

How much research can you really do if you did not witness the autograph in person?

Great questions, so I’ll try to hit both in one post. When it comes to research, the biggest thing is figuring out where the item came from was it a private signing, street dealer, or shop dealer? There are plenty of legit shops that have been around for years doing in-person signings with athletes and witnessing them. I buy a ton of autographs from the '90s and early 2000s right in the middle of the Operation Bullpen era. So I’ve put in the time learning what kind of fakes came out back then and the patterns forgers followed. That stuff helps a lot. Once you’ve seen enough, you can pick out a fake Mantle from that era pretty easily. Operation Bullpen was huge probably even bigger than this, but it actually helped the hobby in a weird way. It taught us who to buy from, what red flags to look for, and most importantly, not to trust every COA just because it says authentic. Now with what’s happening currently, we’re already seeing patterns again. The fake Judge autos, for example, have a specific type of fraudulent Fanatics sticker that stands out. Pair that with the weird signature style the forger used, and you’ve already got a solid base for spotting them. Bottom line: research matters. Learn what real autos look like, stay on top of current trends in both real and fake signatures, and don’t rely on the sticker alone which I think is the biggest one. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. As for the 8x10s yeah, they’re a prime target. Easy to mass produce and forge, and we’re already seeing reports of fake JSA/PSA/Beckett stickers floating around. That’s why again, it comes down to trusting the autograph, not just the sticker. Also it helps the 8x10 market is kinda crap and I do not need any modern ones really.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by awz50

Great questions, so I’ll try to hit both in one post. When it comes to research, the biggest thing is figuring out where the item came from was it a private signing, street dealer, or shop dealer? There are plenty of legit shops that have been around for years doing in-person signings with athletes and witnessing them. I buy a ton of autographs from the '90s and early 2000s right in the middle of the Operation Bullpen era. So I’ve put in the time learning what kind of fakes came out back then and the patterns forgers followed. That stuff helps a lot. Once you’ve seen enough, you can pick out a fake Mantle from that era pretty easily. Operation Bullpen was huge probably even bigger than this, but it actually helped the hobby in a weird way. It taught us who to buy from, what red flags to look for, and most importantly, not to trust every COA just because it says authentic. Now with what’s happening currently, we’re already seeing patterns again. The fake Judge autos, for example, have a specific type of fraudulent Fanatics sticker that stands out. Pair that with the weird signature style the forger used, and you’ve already got a solid base for spotting them. Bottom line: research matters. Learn what real autos look like, stay on top of current trends in both real and fake signatures, and don’t rely on the sticker alone which I think is the biggest one. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. As for the 8x10s yeah, they’re a prime target. Easy to mass produce and forge, and we’re already seeing reports of fake JSA/PSA/Beckett stickers floating around. That’s why again, it comes down to trusting the autograph, not just the sticker. Also it helps the 8x10 market is kinda crap and I do not need any modern ones really.

But how many lay people can actually get to authenticator level skill at distinguishing a fake from real auto?

That is asking quite a lot from the general public.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

But how many lay people can actually get to authenticator level skill at distinguishing a fake from real auto?

That is asking quite a lot from the general public.

Oh very few, which is a bummer. The hope is that authenticators continue to gain knowledge. I would hope though if people plan on dropping hundreds and thousands of dollars on autographs they are at least doing the leg work a little. Of course it will always be possible to duped but its about risk management at that point. I was more answering the post I guess for me, less the general public

[backtothe50s]

Originally Posted by awz50

Great questions, so I’ll try to hit both in one post. When it comes to research, the biggest thing is figuring out where the item came from was it a private signing, street dealer, or shop dealer? There are plenty of legit shops that have been around for years doing in-person signings with athletes and witnessing them. I buy a ton of autographs from the '90s and early 2000s right in the middle of the Operation Bullpen era. So I’ve put in the time learning what kind of fakes came out back then and the patterns forgers followed. That stuff helps a lot. Once you’ve seen enough, you can pick out a fake Mantle from that era pretty easily. Operation Bullpen was huge probably even bigger than this, but it actually helped the hobby in a weird way. It taught us who to buy from, what red flags to look for, and most importantly, not to trust every COA just because it says authentic. Now with what’s happening currently, we’re already seeing patterns again. The fake Judge autos, for example, have a specific type of fraudulent Fanatics sticker that stands out. Pair that with the weird signature style the forger used, and you’ve already got a solid base for spotting them. Bottom line: research matters. Learn what real autos look like, stay on top of current trends in both real and fake signatures, and don’t rely on the sticker alone which I think is the biggest one. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. As for the 8x10s yeah, they’re a prime target. Easy to mass produce and forge, and we’re already seeing reports of fake JSA/PSA/Beckett stickers floating around. That’s why again, it comes down to trusting the autograph, not just the sticker. Also it helps the 8x10 market is kinda crap and I do not need any modern ones really.

Thank you for your thoughts on this particularly in regards to 8x10's. I think i might skip continuing collecting 8x10s for now. (I dont collect modern 8x10s but I do collect HOF signed 8x10s) as I feel they are just too easy to forge and on ebay you can find a TON of "reprint" signed 8x10s that look so good, its hard to tell if they are not real (I wonder how many of these reprint 8x10s slipped by the Major authenticators like PSA/JSA/Beckett. and certified as authenticated.