Harper vs. Trout - Page 8

cardsin47 · 11-21-2021, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Trout is a great player, no doubt about it. I question wether his final stats (maybe 1 major milestone?), lack of a ring, zero major playoff moments, lack of media presence (now & post career) will warrant monster cardboard prices down the road. If this hobby has taught me anything, it's that guys w/out rings, guys w/out major milestones, guys w/out a media presence...don't warrant big boy cardboard prices. Why does Trout change decades of cardboard history? A couple of MVPs isn't the answer. There's a lot of great players that don't have these type of out this world cardboard prices.

He’s only 1/2 way thru his Career ( in theory )
Your points are good ones - we should explore this post again in 2030

jhssketchcards · 11-21-2021, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Trout is a great player, no doubt about it. I question wether his final stats (maybe 1 major milestone?), lack of a ring, zero major playoff moments, lack of media presence (now & post career) will warrant monster cardboard prices down the road. If this hobby has taught me anything, it's that guys w/out rings, guys w/out major milestones, guys w/out a media presence...don't warrant big boy cardboard prices. Why does Trout change decades of cardboard history? A couple of MVPs isn't the answer. There's a lot of great players that don't have these type of out this world cardboard prices.

Just to be clear… your saying what Trout doesn’t have - of all of that Harper only has the media thing in Trout. Harper has no milestone numbers either. There’s no guarantee he gets any key all-time stats.
Also, a couple is two, Trout has three MVPs … that would be several.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LVDan · 11-21-2021, 05:03 PM

Safe to say Trout’s legacy is at a major cross roads. If he plays 140+ games next year and returns to near MVP form no reason to think he won’t finish considered an all time great.
The more he loses to injury with age becoming a factor soon, the more iffy it becomes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cardsin47 · 11-21-2021, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVDan

Safe to say Trout’s legacy is at a major cross roads. If he plays 140+ games next year and returns to near MVP form no reason to think he won’t finish considered an all time great.
The more he loses to injury with age becoming a factor soon, the more iffy it becomes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

100% ^

ewokpelts · 11-21-2021, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Trout is a great player, no doubt about it. I question wether his final stats (maybe 1 major milestone?), lack of a ring, zero major playoff moments, lack of media presence (now & post career) will warrant monster cardboard prices down the road. If this hobby has taught me anything, it's that guys w/out rings, guys w/out major milestones, guys w/out a media presence...don't warrant big boy cardboard prices. Why does Trout change decades of cardboard history? A couple of MVPs isn't the answer. There's a lot of great players that don't have these type of out this world cardboard prices.

Too many people are pot committed to trout and his early cards. Where’s Harper has a metric ton more of his flagship RC out there compared to trout. . In fact the factory set has TWO in there, and that’s not counting the one for the bonus set.

SupermanBrandon · 11-21-2021, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Just to be clear… your saying what Trout doesn’t have - of all of that Harper only has the media thing in Trout. Harper has no milestone numbers either. There’s no guarantee he gets any key all-time stats.
Also, a couple is two, Trout has three MVPs … that would be several.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Never said Harper's cardboard was worthy either. Honestly, I don't follow Harper's cards at all. In fact, I may not even have a single Harper card in my PC.

ThoseBackPages · 11-21-2021, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewokpelts

Too many people are pot committed to trout and his early cards. Where’s Harper has a metric ton more of his flagship RC out there compared to trout. . In fact the factory set has TWO in there, and that’s not counting the one for the bonus set.

FAR fewer 661s vs US175

probably 20:1 for Trout, if not greater

SupermanBrandon · 11-21-2021, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsin47

He’s only 1/2 way thru his Career ( in theory )
Your points are good ones - we should explore this post again in 2030

Agree. Im just looking into my crystal ball and wondering why people think Trout may go against every single cardboard price history thing we know & preach.

ewokpelts · 11-21-2021, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

FAR fewer 661s vs US175

probably 20:1 for Trout, if not greater

PSA submissions is not the same As actual Cards printed

ThoseBackPages · 11-21-2021, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewokpelts

PSA submissions is not the same As actual Cards printed

that is correct

im talking raw production

cardsin47 · 11-22-2021, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

FAR fewer 661s vs US175

probably 20:1 for Trout, if not greater

Are these your Cards TBP? They’re both really sweet!

towerymt · 11-22-2021, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewokpelts

PSA submissions is not the same As actual Cards printed

https://www.beckett.com/news/2012-to...61-variations/

I had to look this up (I wasn't collecting modern in 2012). Looks like the S2 Harper 'red helmet' is a short print not unlike the Acuna bat down. 'blue helmet' was factory set, and 'screaming' was a retail factory set bonus variation.

So it's not just PSA pop that's different. US175 Trout Update is produced in much larger numbers.

PSA:
#661 Harper Red Helmet - pop 302 (151 gem)
#US175 Trout Update - 10,402 (5524 gem)

20:1 sounds conservative but plausible. The Harper RC (ie, from the pack) is a lot more rare than the Trout RC.

ThoseBackPages · 11-22-2021, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Are these your Cards TBP? They’re both really sweet!

Yes Sir! Ty

ThoseBackPages · 11-22-2021, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by towerymt

https://www.beckett.com/news/2012-to...61-variations/

I had to look this up (I wasn't collecting modern in 2012). Looks like the S2 Harper 'red helmet' is a short print not unlike the Acuna bat down. 'blue helmet' was factory set, and 'screaming' was a retail factory set bonus variation.

So it's not just PSA pop that's different. US175 Trout Update is produced in much larger numbers.

PSA:
#661 Harper Red Helmet - pop 302 (151 gem)
#US175 Trout Update - 10,402 (5524 gem)

20:1 sounds conservative but plausible. The Harper RC (ie, from the pack) is a lot more rare than the Trout RC.

Yes Sir!

JRX · 11-22-2021, 02:39 PM

I love both of them, and while harper may end up with better career numbers, hes not as good as Trout.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Stifle · 11-23-2021, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRX

I love both of them, and while harper may end up with better career numbers, hes not as good as Trout.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

He may not have the skill set that Trout has, but if a player keeps putting himself into the Post Season. That player has the opportunity to create a “Value” in terms of MVP Post Season awards, that also carries weight in terms of being critiqued not only in terms of HOF, but also in card “Value”.

I believe Harper has the better opportunity to increase Post Season value because of the opportunities he will have. Stanton chose to do the same by leaving after he won a MVP.

jhssketchcards · 11-23-2021, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stifle

He may not have the skill set that Trout has, but if a player keeps putting himself into the Post Season. That player has the opportunity to create a “Value” in terms of MVP Post Season awards, that also carries weight in terms of being critiqued not only in terms of HOF, but also in card “Value”.

I believe Harper has the better opportunity to increase Post Season value because of the opportunities he will have. Stanton chose to do the same by leaving after he won a MVP.

Phillies haven’t been in the postseason since Harper arrived. Nationals won a WS without him the season after he leaves. That may not speak volumes but it does show that one player doesn’t have as big of an impact on team success as many think. Trout gets bashed for not making the postseason and while that does stink, it’s not as impactful for a star baseball player carrying a team like they can in football or basketball. The Braves proved that with losing Acuna. The pieces they picked up gelled well and became a team that won it all. Postseason success is nice, but it can’t be held against guys all of the time. Mookie Betts is a good example… if postseason really helped a players cards explode in price, Betts is the biggest star with WS wins in the league compared to the rest. He has 2 - Boston and LA, and he’s hit a respectable .274 in his playoff ABs.
He’s also an MVP and MVP runner-up twice, yet his prices aren’t crazy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stifle · 11-23-2021, 08:54 AM

[QUOTE=jhssketchcards;17806897]Phillies haven’t been in the postseason since Harper arrived. Nationals won a WS without him the season after he leaves. That may not speak volumes but it does show that one player doesn’t have as big of an impact on team success as many think. Trout gets bashed for not making the postseason and while that does stink, it’s not as impactful for a star baseball player carrying a team like they can in football or basketball. The Braves proved that with losing Acuna. The pieces they picked up gelled well and became a team that won it all. Postseason success is nice, but it can’t be held against guys all of the time. Mookie Betts is a good example… if postseason really helped a players cards explode in price, Betts is the biggest star with WS wins in the league compared to the rest. He has 2 - Boston and LA, and he’s hit a respectable .274 in his playoff ABs.
He’s also an MVP and MVP runner-up twice, yet his prices aren’t crazy.

The first sentence you made is all I needed. Teams may need that piece of the puzzle to lift them. Trout could be that piece for multiple teams because it’s been a 3 game series with the Angels, 7 years ago.

The Yankees brought in 2 players who don’t have the skill level of Harper and Trout after 100 games and it propelled them to the playoffs. Those things are accounted for in terms of lifting a team on the fringe. That is why I have critiqued fringe HOF players like Votto, Mauer, etc for their Post Season performances. The same can be critiqued for in card values. Trout and Harper both need to take their teams beyond and have a major influence.

By the way, Betts has a whopping -0.10 WPA in the Post Season. For the record, Betts performed like MIA for Boston in situations in the playoffs where the leverages were high and performed well in blowout victories. How does one perform when the leverage is raised.

Tpm2780 · 11-23-2021, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVDan

Safe to say Trout’s legacy is at a major cross roads. If he plays 140+ games next year and returns to near MVP form no reason to think he won’t finish considered an all time great.
The more he loses to injury with age becoming a factor soon, the more iffy it becomes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think both players are good and I dont PC either of them but definitely agree with this!

rats60 · 11-23-2021, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVDan

Safe to say Trout’s legacy is at a major cross roads. If he plays 140+ games next year and returns to near MVP form no reason to think he won’t finish considered an all time great.
The more he loses to injury with age becoming a factor soon, the more iffy it becomes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The last year he played more than 140 games was 2016. That is expecting a lot from a guy who has been injury prone the last 5 seasons and is coming off a major injury that caused him to miss 126 games. The most likely future is that he continues to miss games from injuries and he doesn't reach the milestones that "investors" expected when they bought his cards.

ThoseBackPages · 11-23-2021, 10:27 AM

collectors are not worried

Stifle · 11-25-2021, 05:11 PM

It's not about being worried, these players are elite. It's about being tiered, not only in card value but in HOF tiering.

ThoseBackPages · 11-25-2021, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stifle

It's not about being worried, these players are elite. It's about being tiered, not only in card value but in HOF tiering.

but how does that affect a current collector? (thats was why my "not worried" comment was made)

i understand the money aspect for some folks, but thats not the case for everyone

in the end, it all evens out (collecting) really

Stifle · 11-25-2021, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurds

Who do you think will hold more long term value (card prices, and beneficial to their team) and why??

ThoseBackPages, I was utilizing long term pricing and why. For now, both players have strong prices.

ThoseBackPages · 11-25-2021, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stifle

ThoseBackPages, I was utilizing long term pricing and why. For now, both players have strong prices.

thats true. i dont envy anyone getting into collecting the last 18 months

11-21-2021, 05:03 PM	#178
LVDan Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 17,866	Safe to say Trout’s legacy is at a major cross roads. If he plays 140+ games next year and returns to near MVP form no reason to think he won’t finish considered an all time great. The more he loses to injury with age becoming a factor soon, the more iffy it becomes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ So we cheated and we lied and we tested. And we never failed to fail; it was the easiest thing to do.

11-23-2021, 08:54 AM	#193
Stifle Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: I've met great collectors throughout MI and N. Indiana / CHI. Posts: 9,666 Stifle	[QUOTE=jhssketchcards;17806897]Phillies haven’t been in the postseason since Harper arrived. Nationals won a WS without him the season after he leaves. That may not speak volumes but it does show that one player doesn’t have as big of an impact on team success as many think. Trout gets bashed for not making the postseason and while that does stink, it’s not as impactful for a star baseball player carrying a team like they can in football or basketball. The Braves proved that with losing Acuna. The pieces they picked up gelled well and became a team that won it all. Postseason success is nice, but it can’t be held against guys all of the time. Mookie Betts is a good example… if postseason really helped a players cards explode in price, Betts is the biggest star with WS wins in the league compared to the rest. He has 2 - Boston and LA, and he’s hit a respectable .274 in his playoff ABs. He’s also an MVP and MVP runner-up twice, yet his prices aren’t crazy. The first sentence you made is all I needed. Teams may need that piece of the puzzle to lift them. Trout could be that piece for multiple teams because it’s been a 3 game series with the Angels, 7 years ago. The Yankees brought in 2 players who don’t have the skill level of Harper and Trout after 100 games and it propelled them to the playoffs. Those things are accounted for in terms of lifting a team on the fringe. That is why I have critiqued fringe HOF players like Votto, Mauer, etc for their Post Season performances. The same can be critiqued for in card values. Trout and Harper both need to take their teams beyond and have a major influence. By the way, Betts has a whopping -0.10 WPA in the Post Season. For the record, Betts performed like MIA for Boston in situations in the playoffs where the leverages were high and performed well in blowout victories. How does one perform when the leverage is raised. Last edited by Stifle; 11-23-2021 at 09:39 AM.

11-23-2021, 10:27 AM	#196
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 91,375 ThoseBackPages	collectors are not worried __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

11-22-2021, 02:39 PM	#190
JRX Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 16,296	I love both of them, and while harper may end up with better career numbers, hes not as good as Trout. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

11-25-2021, 05:11 PM	#197
Stifle Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: I've met great collectors throughout MI and N. Indiana / CHI. Posts: 9,666 Stifle	It's not about being worried, these players are elite. It's about being tiered, not only in card value but in HOF tiering.