BGS Black Labels, Joe Clemons (eBay ID: wjc75056), and Illegitimate Grading

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I PM'd Joe on here. Just asked him if he got a discount for working there or how he justified paying $50/card (if that's the actual same day price) on low end cards.

He said they were all RCR so he knew the grades. You would pay same day rates to get them slabbed faster so you can sell them.

Another interesting part of this story:

why RCR if he can easily drop them off at BGS? Maybe his favorite grader was doing the RCR?

[gabballplayer14]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What do you expect him to come in here and say? He runs a business and has likely made a business decision to stay away because he has nothing of value to add.

So many individuals here have dealt with Josh. I’ve never seen a single bad word said about him. I don’t think he deserves to be dragged into this just because he grades a large volume of cards and happened to buy a few cards from some sketchy characters.

I agree, he made a business decision to stay away since this whole thing negatively affects his business very, very much.

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I trust that if Josh had something helpful to add, he would be in here to do it.

As for him owning potentially altered cards, that’s up to him how he wants to handle it.

And do you? I think he would be very helpful and can add LOTS of value in this discussion, actually.

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by hche

What I meant is RCR does not guaranteed the final grade. Also it does not have subgrades.

Let's just say Joe submitted all 22 cards RCR 10. It is still mind boggling 17 got black labels.

Wouldn't Joe have records of buying a bunch of RCR 10's or did he conveniently purchase them all offline in cash transactions with people he only met once?

[kevinandji]

So...after 85 pages I come to believe we are all getting screwed. Yes there are much worse actors in this hobby that we are discussing at length here but all in all it’s just one big sham. I knew this Black Label crap would ruin this hobby. In coins they went from First Strike to Never Breathed on Etc etc...familiar to Panini and their “First Off the Line boxes. Holy getting scalped Batman...retail is ugly, graders are ugly, the wheels are literally falling off. I’m rambling but in those rambles are some points of wisdom I hope...our hobby is slowly dying...

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Another interesting part of this story:

why RCR if he can easily drop them off at BGS? Maybe his favorite grader was doing the RCR?

I guess there is nothing to stop you from spinning the story any way you wish.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

All of my raw card reviews have been slabbed the same grade.

It has occoured to many members here over the years and BGS clearly states the RCR grade is not set in stone

[clocsta2323]

If Leaf had any credibility as a product Brian Gray just destroyed it.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by pejc300

Weird, I never saw Joe post that on here? I never saw him once say he uses RCR in either of his two amazing monologues. Weird, I didn't know BGS does black label RCR's (they don't).

There is one person in this thread that believes Joe:

1. jr24ai3

There are two people that are defending Joe, but don't believe a word he says:

1. Brian Gray
2. Joe Clemons.

jr24ai3 - way to make your last stand buddy! The others have finally come to the good side, but kudos to you for sticking it out!

I didn't think it was possible to get a black label from a RCR

[notfast]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

I didn't think it was possible to get a black label from a RCR

It is. The RCR labels aren’t black but it “could” end up being black once subbed.

[sfgiants4life]

Originally Posted by notfast

It is. The RCR labels aren’t black but it “could” end up being black once subbed.

Or it may not....many things could happen. Doesn't mean they will. Especially so often...but what do I know...I use contacts.

[imbluestreak23]

86 pages and there hasn’t been an

It’s over Johnny?

Wasted that past half hour skimming through 20 pages of pure forum garbage. BO should be ashamed.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

It has occoured to many members here over the years and BGS clearly states the RCR grade is not set in stone

I never said it was set in stone.

I've been told by a Beckett rep that once it leaves Beckett's possession they can't guarantee it because anything could happen to the card in that holder.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I never said it was set in stone.

I've been told by a Beckett rep that once it leaves Beckett's possession they can't guarantee it because anything could happen to the card in that holder.

This stopped years ago. RCR is 100% not guaranteed. Sure it’s “likely” but there is nothing that promises the same grade anymore.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

I guess there is nothing to stop you from spinning the story any way you wish.

Honest question. Why go through the effort of RCR if he is this incredible grader? It totally runs counter.

[Seahawks425]

Josh has his own personal stuff to worry about right now. I think no matter what you won’t be hearing from him

Originally Posted by gabballplayer14

I agree, he made a business decision to stay away since this whole thing negatively affects his business very, very much.




And do you? I think he would be very helpful and can add LOTS of value in this discussion, actually.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by notfast

It is. The RCR labels aren’t black but it “could” end up being black once subbed.

Ok, thank you. I was under the impression he got RCR's with a grade of 10 black label.


and yes, I do know you can get a higher and lower grade than the designated RCR grade.

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by notfast

It is. The RCR labels aren’t black but it “could” end up being black once subbed.

Correct
At the white plains show in 2016 I Rcr’d 10 Bowman Chrome cards
All of them came back 9.5 - I was told by the rep that the grades they received would only be guaranteed if I submitted them right there for encapsulation
That if I left with them the guaranteed grades would not be honored
I submitted them right then at the booth

When I got my cards back 8 of them received the 9.5 grade
The other 2 ? Came back as 10s

So it is possible for rcr’d 10 cards to get a black label

[jr24ai3]

Reasons I am not convinced Joe did anything wrong:

1. The cards he submits are generally not very tough to get high grades - modern chrome, leaf metal, leaf valiant, etc.

2. I've found a sub that is not Joe's that has black labels grouped together and there were 9 in a row. So it's not impossible.

3. Another member posted he had 5 black labels out of 30...so it's not impossible to do.

4. He has worked for beckett and reviewed many cards for customers. I see this as a reason he is able to have a higher success rate than average.

5. His reason for paying for the same day service was reasonable to me (he said the cards were RCR'd already so he knew the grades).

6. He did admit he went 3/3 on a sub w/ black labels. Two of those cards were leaf metal/leaf valiant...two easy cards to get 10s on.


There are also items in this thread that are not true:

1. It was stated earlier that Joe admitted to going 8/8 and 22/22 with black labels on a submission....this is not true.

2. It was stated that Beckett wiped his submission history clean - this is not true. Beckett only keeps your past 30 or so orders on the site.

3. It was stated that he went in for same day service and got all black labels except one - while this is technically a fact, Joe gave me the reason that those cards were already RCR'd 10s, which to me was a reasonable explanation for paying for same day service and why he got all 10s.

Clearly not everyone agrees with me, which is fine. Just stating my reasons.

I'll try to avoid this thread since it really isn't going anywhere. I'll only respond to dispute people who twist facts/spread false information.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Correct
At the white plains show in 2016 I Rcr’d 10 Bowman Chrome cards
All of them came back 9.5 - I was told by the rep that the grades they received would only be guaranteed if I submitted them right there for encapsulation
That if I left with them the guaranteed grades would not be honored
I submitted them right then at the booth

When I got my cards back 8 of them received the 9.5 grade
The other 2 ? Came back as 10s

So it is possible for rcr’d 10 cards to get a black label

Sounds right. Except the guaranteed part has ended.

[jond2107]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Well you can choose to believe what you want. I believe him. It's an answer that justifies him paying $50/card if he knows he can get $150-$200+ for each one.

When did they start putting subs on rcr? I have never seen this personally..has anyone ever seen a black label rcr?

[notfast]

I like how everyone just skipped over the PM where he told me he didn’t do RCR.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by salthill

We’re watching the Liar’s Playbook unfold.
1) “There’s no evidence of wrongdoing.”
2) “OK, there is evidence, but it’s from unreliable sources.”
3) “OK, there is reliable evidence, but it’s insufficient to prove wrongdoing.”
4) “OK, there is sufficient evidence, but what they were doing is only a minor transgression.”
5) “Look over there at this other thing that’s happening.”

We’re between stage 2 and 3 right now. Lots more travel to go on this path.

Looks like we’ve moved to Step 3, this one will play out for a while before Step 4.

Quack, quack.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by notfast

I like how everyone just skipped over the PM where he told me he didn’t do RCR.

Sorry I missed this: Joe clearly stated to you he DID NOT DO RCR?

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Reasons I am not convinced Joe did anything wrong:

1. The cards he submits are generally not very tough to get high grades - modern chrome, leaf metal, leaf valiant, etc.

2. I've found a sub that is not Joe's that has black labels grouped together and there were 9 in a row. So it's not impossible.

3. Another member posted he had 5 black labels out of 30...so it's not impossible to do.

4. He has worked for beckett and reviewed many cards for customers. I see this as a reason he is able to have a higher success rate than average.

5. His reason for paying for the same day service was reasonable to me (he said the cards were RCR'd already so he knew the grades).

6. He did admit he went 3/3 on a sub w/ black labels. Two of those cards were leaf metal/leaf valiant...two easy cards to get 10s on.


There are also items in this thread that are not true:

1. It was stated earlier that Joe admitted to going 8/8 and 22/22 with black labels on a submission....this is not true.

2. It was stated that Beckett wiped his submission history clean - this is not true. Beckett only keeps your past 30 or so orders on the site.

3. It was stated that he went in for same day service and got all black labels except one - while this is technically a fact, Joe gave me the reason that those cards were already RCR'd 10s, which to me was a reasonable explanation for paying for same day service and why he got all 10s.

Clearly not everyone agrees with me, which is fine. Just stating my reasons.

I'll try to avoid this thread since it really isn't going anywhere. I'll only respond to dispute people who twist facts/spread false information.

Props

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by notfast

I am certainly not the burn him at the stake type as seen by all my posts in this thread.

I was very clear and so was his response about RCR

I just tried to read it. Too small.


I would assume he told you he does not do RCR?

what is your opinion now?