$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein

[tconte]

The bad behavior is largely a matter of the recent past

LOL....Only way that would be the case is if they stopped doing it.

When I read the post by Betsy, I felt like it was an earnings call after a
company released earnings and were reviewing financials and market
trends. Advertising fluff in my opinion.

I wasn't aware of any announcement detailing steps to improve grading
and customer satisfaction during the ebay buying process of these bad cards
that keep getting out there.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

If PWCC is being fooled, they'll want to get this squared away before their Vault service starts up or I see them having a bad time.

Excellent point. Could tank PWCC. All these trimmed cards being used as collateral.

discostu, terrific post. Well said.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

I am hopeful that PWCC will accept my request to release a list of all graded cards submitted through them by the four large trimmers. After that occurs, I will agree with you 100%. Until that occurs, I hope we can both agree that they are doing a CYA by covering up the true scope of this. Remember, I know the scope, but I am still working though how and when to best publicly convey that scope. (And PWCC knows too.)

Forget a list of all graded cards. How about just cards in their most recently completed auction?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Forget a list of all graded cards. How about just cards in their most recently completed auction?

That would be a great start.

We will see that at some point you just have to assume that everything PWCC has sold is trimmed, so a list actually becomes almost trivial.

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The cynicism on the boards is very sad to me. You have a company that comes on and says they’re going to make changes for the better, and instead of giving them any time to see if actual changes are made (which I admit we need to see or I’ll join the throngs of calling them out), we get attacks with statements like this is nothing more than “cya.” What happened to giving people/companies a chance to change and repair damage? And no, I have zero affiliation with them.

I will admit this is the new normal in our age of social media. Vitriol carries the day and we lose sight that humans are imperfect. PWCC and PSA are not the ones doing the crime. Now if it comes to light that they were complicit, gloves are off, but I don’t think this is the case.

All we demand is transparency from them. Is that too much?

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Excellent point. Could tank PWCC. All these trimmed cards being used as collateral.

discostu, terrific post. Well said.

This is exactly my point. When companies have this much to lose, change occurs. But posters don’t want to hear that.

I’ve realized that the vocal group against these companies don’t want actual change to improve things, they just want these companies to go away as they personally don’t like grading in the hobby. Recent events are being co-opted to become their rallying cry for the end of grading

So be it. But what I don’t get is why this matters to the anti-grading group so much. They clearly don’t like grading in general, so I’m sure they’re not buying graded cards, so they’re not being harmed by this in any way. Why the extra step to say “down with grading?”

[discostu]

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

This is exactly my point. When companies have this much to lose, change occurs. But posters don’t want to hear that.

I’ve realized that the vocal group against these companies don’t want actual change to improve things, they just want these companies to go away as they personally don’t like grading in the hobby. Recent events are being co-opted to become their rallying cry for the end of grading

So be it. But what I don’t get is why this matters to the anti-grading group so much. They clearly don’t like grading in general, so I’m sure they’re not buying graded cards, so they’re not being harmed by this in any way. Why the extra step to say “down with grading?”

Be careful who you are lumping together here.

And we’re tired of talk. Put up or shut up time for PWCC, Probstein, PSA, BGS, SGC, etc.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

All we demand is transparency from them. Is that too much?

It’s not. They said they were going to release additional information regarding transparency and protocols to help fight these crimes. I don’t get why posters are still destroying them without giving them the chance to do so?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

It’s not. They said they were going to release additional information regarding transparency and protocols to help fight these crimes. I don’t get why posters are still destroying them without giving them the chance to do so?

This saga started in November with BNC. It has evolved to capture every major player in the hobby. PWCC has done nothing besides pull down most auctions of altered cards. Kudos to them for doing that, but that’s not some grand step they’ve taken to clean up.

[psd2k10]

guys! PWCC has a lot of power in the hobby. they are a MAJOR player. All we are asking is for them to use that power to help weed out all the noise. As true hobby baseball card collectors, we are counting on them! Please don't let us down PWCC. I always see their auctions but I never buy from them because I just don't trust them. Help bring that trust back PWCC!!!

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by discostu

Clearly this is directed (at least in part) to me, with the "CYA" mention, so I'll respond.

There is most certainly cynicism in my response, and there should be.

There are some major flaws in Betsy/PWCC's post.

First and foremost, trying to take control of a decades old issue and somehow infer that it's a new issue. It's not. Why would they take that approach? Either to deliver a false sense of confidence to the authenticity of the grades in older auctions and to remove suspicion in older auctions or to take the 'white knight' approach and come in like the hero, as if they've solved a dilemma.

Secondly, Betsy/PWCC wants credit for some set of "marketplace tenets" prior to even finalizing them. Not sure about you, but when I've ever been told, "I've got a great plan to fix my mistakes, it's not finalized yet, but it's going to really be great," my cynicism was well-founded.

Do they deserve the opportunity to make it right? Sure.

Do they deserve the opportunity to be heard? Sure.

Do they deserve cynicism? Sure.

And look, the elephants in the room are PSA and BGS...who are silent. All parties involved need to take some ownership of their positions. You position yourself as an expert or pillar in an industry, be it.

Don't simply react once the market clearly sees that you're not an expert/pillar.

That's not what industry leaders do.

I understand and can respect your viewpoint on this. Let’s see what PWCC comes up with.

[3124508 on COMC]

And to the best of my knowledge Kevin Burge still has items in this month's auction.

[discostu]

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by discostu

Come on now.

PWCC is acting like this is new information. They've had chances. They've had YEARS OF CHANCES.

They are responding now simply because the crowds are noisier and the financial implications are larger.

PWCC has long been aware of trimmed cards being sold by them for years. They've done nothing.

They're now claiming to create some magical set of "marketplace tenets."

But yeah, clearly an "atta boy" and a pat on the back is needed.

OK. I said I respect your opinion. Clearly you don’t respect mine. I’ll move on now.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The cynicism on the boards is very sad to me. You have a company that comes on and says they’re going to make changes for the better, and instead of giving them any time to see if actual changes are made (which I admit we need to see or I’ll join the throngs of calling them out), we get attacks with statements like this is nothing more than “cya.” What happened to giving people/companies a chance to change and repair damage? And no, I have zero affiliation with them.

I will admit this is the new normal in our age of social media. Vitriol carries the day and we lose sight that humans are imperfect. PWCC and PSA are not the ones doing the crime. Now if it comes to light that they were complicit, gloves are off, but I don’t think this is the case.

The benefit of the doubt is gone now.

The only thing that will fix this is transparency. The consignors and the grading companies need to out those that keep profiting on this behavior. They need to be clear about their standards and what they are doing to protect consumers. They need to re-build trust that a professional grade is worth something and that the products they consign are unaltered/untrimmed.

It's great that someone has stepped up and started doing the right thing. But that's only step 1. And that's only one of the players in this.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

OK. I said I respect your opinion. Clearly you don’t respect mine. I’ll move on now.

Here’s how much PWCC is willing to help.

Originally Posted by astrotrevor

Here is the reply from PWCC.

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Here’s how much PWCC is willing to help.

PWCC

[discostu]

* If there's a hell way down below, I bet you see someone you know *

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

I am hopeful that PWCC will accept my request to release a list of all graded cards submitted through them by the four large trimmers. After that occurs, I will agree with you 100%. Until that occurs, I hope we can both agree that they are doing a CYA by covering up the true scope of this. Remember, I know the scope, but I am still working though how and when to best publicly convey that scope. (And PWCC knows too.)

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

And to the best of my knowledge Kevin Burge still has items in this month's auction.

[pga-ink]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

And to the best of my knowledge Kevin Burge still has items in this month's auction.

WHO CARES !!!

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by pga-ink

WHO CARES !!!

People who don't like trimmed cards

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pga-ink

WHO CARES !!!

You don’t mind buying trimmed cards?

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by pga-ink

WHO CARES !!!

Who cares about this Bernie Madoff guy