John & Kamala Slight; Escondido, CA; Ebay: sundiegocollectibles, WIWAG, CARD DOCTORS

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

From an old 54 post, don't recognize the poster, during the trial.

You should have been there. Word is Mr. Orlando told a few too many untruths. The first was that WIWAG did not have a sealing machine. It was funny that the machine that they never had was sitting in the courtroom. Also brought out was that there were thousands of unprotected holders left outside the PSA security premises. Seems to me that this was no small operation WIWAG was running. How does the FBI investigate this matter and leave the consumer in jeopardy like this? I know why PSA would do so. It is called covering your ass and to hell with the collectors that have been bilked. Let's see the spin doctors at PSA spin this one. Oh I'm sorry I forgot they never say anything to their customers, so that they might protect themselves.

The FBI agent who was in charge of the investigation, Tim Fitzsimmons, I believe his name is, said that while PSA was cooperative they were eager to get the investigation wrapped up as quickly as possible.

[auburn35]

Maybe some of those recent Michael Jordan PSA 10's that were decertified with apparent legit labels and cases, originated from WIWAG?

I don't think there was ever a public list of compromised certifications but PSA obviously should have that information and the new ownership has said "we want the cards off the market, that we screwed up".

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Maybe some of those recent Michael Jordan PSA 10's that were decertified with apparent legit labels and cases, originated from WIWAG?

I don't think there was ever a public list of compromised certifications but PSA obviously should have that information and the new ownership has said "we want the cards off the market, that we screwed up".

Not only did they never release a list of certs that they knew or suspected were WIWAGers but they never gave anyone guidance as to what to look for. Everyone assumed they did not have a WIWAG cad in their collection if they did not buy from WIWAG directly but they were selling through Grade N Trade and one other outlet besides themselves.

If anyone actually thought that PSA was gonna do the right thing with regards to the card doctoring scandal, they were clearly not around for the WIWAG debacle.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Maybe some of those recent Michael Jordan PSA 10's that were decertified with apparent legit labels and cases, originated from WIWAG?

That wouldn't explain why both the "Real" PSA 10 and the "fake" PSA 10s had the same cert numbers. Once the case was cracked and the flip went with a new card, it's still only one Cert.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

That wouldn't explain why both the "Real" PSA 10 and the "fake" PSA 10s had the same cert numbers. Once the case was cracked and the flip went with a new card, it's still only one Cert.

Yeah, I was thinking about the ones like this, that appear to be "real" PSA labels and cases.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1472136

The visibly counterfeit examples, especially those with PSA holograms on the label that came along after WIWAG are obviously from a different source. I think many believe those originated from the counterfeit operation in Mexico.

[mjohnatgt]

Ah, could be. Lot of frosting on that one.

[pip]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

That wouldn't explain why both the "Real" PSA 10 and the "fake" PSA 10s had the same cert numbers. Once the case was cracked and the flip went with a new card, it's still only one Cert.

The 1986 Fleer Jordan was indeed one of the cards that was targeted by WIWAG:

From: https://www.freedomcardboard.com/for...2#post-1731376

Well I was screwed by it so here it goes.

WIWAG was out of CA and was two brothers I believe [my note: friends, not brothers, one of whom was an attorney]. They had a legit auction house going for years. In fact my first PSA graded card I ever bought was from them. They were almost pre Ebay or right around Ebay time.

Story goes is they went to PSA to drop off a order and saw that there was a package for delivery sitting outside PSA from their holder supplier. They took the package, found a supplier in China that made the sonic wielder and boom they were in the grading business.

What they would do is go out and buy the highest grade cards they could find for example a super nice PSA 8 1959 Mickey Mantle. They would then go out and find pretty nice PSA 6's or 7's of the same card. They would pop out the PSA 8 Mickey Mantle, take the tag from that holder, pop in their PSA 6 or PSA 7 mantle into a stolen holder, put in the legit flip from the PSA 8 Mantle and wield it shut. Viola a new PSA 8 Mantle. They would then send the Mantle back in for a regrade and once it came back as a PSA 8, they would do it all over again.

They targeted Barry Bonds RC's, Jordan RC's and other "newer" rcs of the time. I got a bad 58 Clemente PSA 9, 1957 Mays PSA 8 and PSA 10 1986 Fleer Update Bonds from those guys.

PSA figured it out somehow, well I think people started to trace back alot of cards to WIWAG, such as PSA 9's with back creases. PSA was paying for their "mistakes" and caught them eventually.

They never released a list of all cards WIWAG graded and their cert numbers. I am sure in the hobbby there are WIWAG cards floating around daily on ebay. If you see a super ugly PSA 8 1950's star card and can't figure out how it get the grade it did, just say WIWAG.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Not only did they never release a list of certs that they knew or suspected were WIWAGers but they never gave anyone guidance as to what to look for. Everyone assumed they did not have a WIWAG cad in their collection if they did not buy from WIWAG directly but they were selling through Grade N Trade and one other outlet besides themselves.

If anyone actually thought that PSA was gonna do the right thing with regards to the card doctoring scandal, they were clearly not around for the WIWAG debacle.

Yes, it was a major reason I predicted on day one of this PSA was going to go into ostrich repeat mode. WIWAG might never have been caught if they hadn't been so stupid as to pull their stunt with a serially numbered insert card.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Yes, it was a major reason I predicted on day one of this PSA was going to go into ostrich repeat mode. WIWAG might never have been caught if they hadn't been so stupid as to pull their stunt with a serially numbered insert card.

Well it worked wonders. The whole hobby was under the impression the WIWAG thing was a very small amount of cards. Suppress info. Keep everyone in the dark and make it like it is no big deal.

They have done the same thing with Copperfield's holders. Has PSA once put out guidance or assisted collectors? They take swift action only after someone has been screwed and then they make the victim take the hit.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Well it worked wonders. The whole hobby was under the impression the WIWAG thing was a very small amount of cards. Suppress info. Keep everyone in the dark and make it like it is no big deal.

They have done the same thing with Copperfield's holders. Has PSA once put out guidance or assisted collectors? They take swift action only after someone has been screwed and then they make the victim take the hit.

Question: How many pallets did WIWAG make off with and how many PSA holders were in each pallet? Are we talking tens or hundreds of thousands? Can anyone email John Slight or Craig Kreider and ask them? Didn't one of them own a truck or large SUV?

[maddux69]

They have a lot of questionable cards up right now, both auctions and BINs. Thanks for the heads up as I might have blindly bought from them if not for this thread.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Well it worked wonders. The whole hobby was under the impression the WIWAG thing was a very small amount of cards. Suppress info. Keep everyone in the dark and make it like it is no big deal.

They have done the same thing with Copperfield's holders. Has PSA once put out guidance or assisted collectors? They take swift action only after someone has been screwed and then they make the victim take the hit.

PSA’s marketing department and corrupt hobby partners always do all they can to increase value and create “assets”. Flippers like seeing this level of support, perhaps even more so when that support is illicit.

[cking]

Originally Posted by maddux69

They have a lot of questionable cards up right now, both auctions and BINs. Thanks for the heads up as I might have blindly bought from them if not for this thread.

This is exactly why people bump the thread up.

Glad you did not get taken by these criminals.

You should never do business with any of these people in these trimming/shilling threads. Even if you have something to gain financially.

Morals and character are what define a person. Not money.

Take some time to go into these threads and read them. You will quickly see which members have good character and which ones are out for nothing but themselves and the almighty dollar.

[DragonWagon]

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered-card-database

Updated with all the cards from this thread to bring the total of altered, fake, mislabled cards and serial numbers to over 4,300.

[jdb41]

I really appreciate the efforts by folks in here to track down and report on these charlatans. I came across a card on COMC today that looked like a 1957 Gene Bakep variation. On closer examination, the characteristic features are a bit off, but it definitely looks like an attempt was made. The card is listed for only $16.25, but it is listed by jrslight. I tried to look up more about the seller, if possible, and came across this thread. I thought I would check out the card in person, so made a $10 offer. It was declined. Not sure the game here, but maybe with enough volume this guy can make a decent profit flipping cards for a $10-15 profit each?

If you know the 1957 Bakep variation, you'll be able to see in the attached picture why it seems improbable as an authentic variation. But I guess he is waiting for a sucker (like me, lol)

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by jdb41

I really appreciate the efforts by folks in here to track down and report on these charlatans. I came across a card on COMC today that looked like a 1957 Gene Bakep variation. On closer examination, the characteristic features are a bit off, but it definitely looks like an attempt was made. The card is listed for only $16.25, but it is listed by jrslight. I tried to look up more about the seller, if possible, and came across this thread. I thought I would check out the card in person, so made a $10 offer. It was declined. Not sure the game here, but maybe with enough volume this guy can make a decent profit flipping cards for a $10-15 profit each?

If you know the 1957 Bakep variation, you'll be able to see in the attached picture why it seems improbable as an authentic variation. But I guess he is waiting for a sucker (like me, lol)

Attachment 521688

I saw this card on COMC when it was loaded, and it looks authentic to me, just not a BAKEP . It's just a print variation based on too much red ink. I would be very surprised if it was altered. There are a lot of 1957 cards with similar issues just due to the way cards were printed back then.

Take a look at the Net54 post-war variations page and you can see that many cards have recurring levels of variation in between the known "error" and "corrected" that are just because of the print process, not anything specific done by the manufacturer.

Here's a bigger image:

1957 Topps - [Base] #176.1 - Gene Baker (Baker on Back)
Courtesy of COMC.com

You can see the bleedthrough of the red into the card number baseball, much like the 1961 Ron Fairly variation, which there are also many different levels to.

[pip]

I can save you some time. The Gene Bakep was never a legitimate variation to begin with. Beckett created all the hype quite a few years ago by suddenly listing the "variation" in its price guide for a ridiculous and artificially high value. In the old days, no one paid any attention to it and rightly so. It was just a card where some of the print run had too much red ink on the back. Lots of 1950s cards fall into that category but aren't considered variations. What makes the Bakep so special?

[corndog]

PSA Cert #24414976

1967 Topps Whitey Ford #5

Value gain of $174.52

PSA Set Registry: none found

This card was purchased by VCP masked buyer ID t***c (John and Kamala Slight) from Ebay seller bruingirl2007 as a PSA 7 for $25.49 on December 07, 2014.

Same card was sold by Ebay seller sundiegocollectibles (John and Kamala Slight) as a PSA 9 for $200.01 on October 08, 2015.

Yellow circles are print, fiber, stain or chipping identifiers.
Red boxes identify trimmed top and bottom edges.
Top and bottom borders were evened up.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #27940030

1969 Topps Bob Gibson #200

Value gain of $122.90

PSA Set Registry: none found

This card was purchased by VCP masked buyer ID t***c (John and Kamala Slight) from Ebay seller pmocards as a PSA 6 for $44.50 on June 15, 2017.

Same card was sold by Ebay seller sundiegocollectibles (John and Kamala Slight) as a PSA 8 for $167.40 on February 13, 2018.

Yellow circles are print, fiber, stain or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed left edge.

[pspa123]

One week will be the third anniversary of the PWCC altered cards thread.

[5CentWaxPack]

Originally Posted by pspa123

One week will be the third anniversary of the PWCC altered cards thread.

Ideal place to post this...lol. Two threads down was the PWCC thread.

[DragonWagon]

All added to the altered card database of over 4.6K https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered-card-database

[corndog]

PSA Cert #29011243

1959 Topps Harmon Killebrew #515

Value gain of $172.65

PSA Set Registry: none found

This card was purchased by VCP masked buyer ID t***c (John and Kamala Slight) from Ebay seller bbcexchange as a PSA 7 for $139.00 on November 26, 2017.

Same card was sold by Ebay seller sundiegocollectibles (John and Kamala Slight) as a PSA 8 for $311.65 on July 05, 2018.

Yellow circles are print, fiber, stain or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed bottom edge.
No back image provided with initial purchase.

[pspa123]

How great would it be to go back in time and see WIWAG's inventory.

[DragonWagon]

Updated https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered-card-database