Is FANATICS in over their head?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Why would collectors want to participate in a hobby infested with self-interested flippers? There’s no benefit and only extra cost.

Sure, some people try to do both and many flippers pretend to be collectors to get the better side of the barter as you say. Some really work for auction houses and some full-time dealers with business licenses. Some collectors downsize or trade and that’s fine.

But talk to old-time shop dealers and they’ll readily admit you’re not going to do both collecting and flipping full-time, there’s no collecting enjoyment there.

Are you saying that there are no collectors left?

And nothing you said even came close to addressing what I said

Collectors are just as self-interested as flippers. You hate flippers because you can't buy cards at the price you think you should. That's self-interest.

I made no comment about flippers pretending to be collectors. And I certainly didn't say they pretend to be collectors to get the better side of the deal. A trade takes two sides agreeing to happen. That means both sides have to think it's a fair deal. Just because you think a card is only worth $5 doestn't mean someone else doen't think it's worth $10.

Not sure what you are talking about with old-time shop dealers. I never said anything about them trying to collect and flip full time at the same time. Shop owners are in it to make money. That means buying low and selling high. The same thing a flipper does.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Kg98

I enjoy sports, and I enjoy gambling. Opening boxes is a form of gambling I choose to enjoy, and selling the cards I don't want in order to pay for that enjoyment is a big part of it for me and many others. Selling singles could be considered "flipping", and yet is an integral part of the hobby itself.

I don’t consider selling singles as flipping.

You, just as I, are doing exactly what the hobby should be - we open boxes, we sell excess singles we don’t want to keep. We get our entertainment on a limited scale and we provide singles to the market for other collectors/investors.

Flippers to me are the ones who buy a box for a certain price and scalp/flip that same product unchanged or “unconsumed” in the same form back into the marketplace at a higher cost. Those flippers do nothing but increase prices for everyone else for their own profit. They don’t get entertainment from opening those boxes, they simply utilize the good purely for profit.

Those are the flippers in the hobby that deserve the public scorn. They are practically begging for it.

[notoriousrmb]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Flippers to me are the ones who buy a box for a certain price and scalp/flip that same product unchanged or “unconsumed” in the same form back into the marketplace at a higher cost. Those flippers do nothing but increase prices for everyone else for their own profit. They don’t get entertainment from opening those boxes, they simply utilize the good purely for profit.

Those are the flippers in the hobby that deserve the public scorn. They are practically begging for it.

So, LCS owners. That is who you are pointing to here because they do exactly as you said above.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Are you saying that there are no collectors left?

And nothing you said even came close to addressing what I said

Collectors are just as self-interested as flippers. You hate flippers because you can't buy cards at the price you think you should. That's self-interest.

I made no comment about flippers pretending to be collectors. And I certainly didn't say they pretend to be collectors to get the better side of the deal. A trade takes two sides agreeing to happen. That means both sides have to think it's a fair deal. Just because you think a card is only worth $5 doestn't mean someone else doen't think it's worth $10.

Not sure what you are talking about with old-time shop dealers. I never said anything about them trying to collect and flip full time at the same time. Shop owners are in it to make money. That means buying low and selling high. The same thing a flipper does.

You are generalizing the term self interest too much. You need to distinguish the two different meanings.

There’s flipper self interest, which increases prices at everyone else’s expense.

Then there’s collector self interest, which doesn’t increase prices for others. It’s simply an entertainment cost for themselves.

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by notoriousrmb

So, LCS owners. That is who you are pointing to here because they do exactly as you said above.

And, ironically, he financially supports them with his "on the whim" purchases.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by notoriousrmb

So, LCS owners. That is who you are pointing to here because they do exactly as you said above.

Yes, card/wax dealers and LCS owners are flippers.

I don’t hold them in high esteem for the hobby. See what they collectively did to the hobby during the pandemic pump.

The flipper mentality was horrendous for hobbyists during the pandemic, to the extreme. It brought out the worst of dealers/LCS in terms of greed.

Flippers who call themselves collectors are simply mini middle men.

[cholodolo]

Originally Posted by notoriousrmb

So, LCS owners. That is who you are pointing to here because they do exactly as you said above.

Shops buying at an agreed upon b2b price directly from the manufacturer (or distributor) and then selling it at MSRP (or near it) is not the discussion. That's called commerce.

Camping out at Target and re-selling blasters...buying slabs at auction then re-listing the same day...those are flippers.

[Kg98]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I don’t consider selling singles as flipping.

You, just as I, are doing exactly what the hobby should be - we open boxes, we sell excess singles we don’t want to keep. We get our entertainment on a limited scale and we provide singles to the market for other collectors/investors.

Flippers to me are the ones who buy a box for a certain price and scalp/flip that same product unchanged or “unconsumed” in the same form back into the marketplace at a higher cost. Those flippers do nothing but increase prices for everyone else for their own profit. They don’t get entertainment from opening those boxes, they simply utilize the good purely for profit.

Those are the flippers in the hobby that deserve the public scorn. They are practically begging for it.

What if I also sometimes sell sealed product to afford to be able to open and sell singles? Am I still flipper scum in that scenario, or is my virtue in tact because I primarily buy to open for myself?

[rms13]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I don’t consider selling singles as flipping.

You, just as I, are doing exactly what the hobby should be - we open boxes, we sell excess singles we don’t want to keep. We get our entertainment on a limited scale and we provide singles to the market for other collectors/investors.

Flippers to me are the ones who buy a box for a certain price and scalp/flip that same product unchanged or “unconsumed” in the same form back into the marketplace at a higher cost. Those flippers do nothing but increase prices for everyone else for their own profit. They don’t get entertainment from opening those boxes, they simply utilize the good purely for profit.

Those are the flippers in the hobby that deserve the public scorn. They are practically begging for it.

What about all the people that buy singles with the hopes to hold for a few months and sell them at a higher price? Aren't those flippers?

[Kg98]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

Shops buying at an agreed upon b2b price directly from the manufacturer (or distributor) and then selling it at MSRP (or near it) is not the discussion. That's called commerce.

Its funny because this line of thinking is very prevalent, as if the brick and mortar location or ecommerce website and direct manufacturer allocation somehow makes the inevitable scalping of the boxes any less of a flip. They do what all scalpers do, just on a far bigger scale.

[notoriousrmb]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

Shops buying at an agreed upon b2b price directly from the manufacturer (or distributor) and then selling it at MSRP (or near it) is not the discussion. That's called commerce.

So flipping is commerce, got it.

Also, shops do NOT solely buy at agreed upon prices with the manufacture and sell at MSRP. 100% incorrect.

They buy from dealernet, which is a flipper marketplace in itself, and resell at prices they want to. I havent seen an LCS sell at "MSRP" (which is an outdated term in itself) in years. They raise and (rarely) lower prices based on demand.

That's flipping.

Oh, and when an LCS buys someone's cards? You know what they do? They put it in their display case at a higher dollar amount.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

And, ironically, he financially supports them with his "on the whim" purchases.

I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board this thread, LOL.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by mfw13

Well....people are already listing retail boxes on EBay already, irrespective of whether or not they are "out" yet.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23490862164...Bk9SR4LpiIHQYQ

Anyway....I bought six blasters for $150+tax, which should be enough to build the base set.....

Again, you're buying a product near it's release date, when demand is really at it's highest. But for comparison:

Hobby box: $90, 336 cards, one guaranteed hit plus 1 silver pack 26.7 cents per card
Retail box: $86, 384 cards, no guaranteed hit (Also a 30 card retail exclusive insert set, but that's too big of a checklist for you) 22.4 cents per card

You bought 6 blasters. You spent 25.3 cents per card and that included 6 manufactured patches that you want gone from products. You spent 14 dollars more to get 6 fake patch cards and 8 more base cards. But please keep complaining that hobby boxes for $90 aren't reasonable and that the value isn't there. For $70 less, you could have purchased a retail box and gotten close to a complete base set, or very close, and purchased a couple singles to complete it. Or waited and potential gotten the box cheaper.

[cholodolo]

Originally Posted by Kg98

Its funny because this line of thinking is very prevalent, as if the brick and mortar location or ecommerce website and direct manufacturer allocation somehow makes the inevitable scalping of the boxes any less of a flip. They do what all scalpers do, just on a far bigger scale.

By that definition, any retail shop of any kind is scalping/flipping.

Is Target just a massive flipping operation? Wal-Mart? Dick's Sporting Goods?

Gotta draw the line somewhere.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Kg98

What if I also sometimes sell sealed product to afford to be able to open and sell singles? Am I still flipper scum in that scenario, or is my virtue in tact because I primarily buy to open for myself?

Haha, there’s that excuse again.

I’m sure you can find hobby funding sources outside of flipping. It’s called a day job.

If you flip for your starving puppy, you are flipping.

No need to sugar coat it.

[notoriousrmb]

All these flipper rants, but for what?

As established, its been around forever and its not going anywhere by screaming at clouds.

Either live with it, or find a new hobby.

[KhalDrogo]

I love that every thread is now the same!

[rms13]

Originally Posted by notoriousrmb

All these flipper rants, but for what?

As established, its been around forever and its not going anywhere by screaming at clouds.

Either live with it, or find a new hobby.

because it's blowout

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

You are generalizing the term self interest too much. You need to distinguish the two different meanings.

There’s flipper self interest, which increases prices at everyone else’s expense.

Then there’s collector self interest, which doesn’t increase prices for others. It’s simply an entertainment cost for themselves.

No I'm not. Self-interest is self-interest is self-interest. Wanting to buy something for the lowest price possible is no different than trying to sell something for the highest price possible.

If someone is willing to pay more for their "entertainment cost," then that increases the price for others. And that doesn't make them a flipper

[eastbayak]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board this thread, LOL.

LOL!! You know I can't pass up such an opportunity :P

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by rms13

What about all the people that buy singles with the hopes to hold for a few months and sell them at a higher price? Aren't those flippers?

Oh, you mean investor bois?

We are all basically investor bois, right? Investor bois consume the hobby product (singles).

Flippers to me are those that do nothing with the hobby product (they don’t consume them) and it usually refers to sealed product.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by whitmm

No I'm not. Self-interest is self-interest is self-interest. Wanting to buy something for the lowest price possible is no different than trying to sell something for the highest price possible.

If someone is willing to pay more for their "entertainment cost," then that increases the price for others. And that doesn't make them a flipper

Flippers hoard for profit, collectors don’t.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by notoriousrmb

All these flipper rants, but for what?

As established, its been around forever and its not going anywhere by screaming at clouds.

Either live with it, or find a new hobby.

There’s one difference.

Flippers will always be faced with public reprimand.

Collectors will not.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Flippers hoard for profit, collectors don’t.

You said that collectors don't raise the price for others. That's flat out wrong. If I want to pay $11 for every copy of a card that you only want to pay $10 for, then I'm raising the price for others. You can either increase what you're willing to pay or not get it.

Not sure what to tell you if you think that collectors have nothing to do with rising prices.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by cholodolo

By that definition, any retail shop of any kind is scalping/flipping.

Is Target just a massive flipping operation? Wal-Mart? Dick's Sporting Goods?

Gotta draw the line somewhere.

Why must there be a line drawn? Maybe there is no line? Maybe there is no "flipper"? That there's just people who buy what is available to them at the price they can find it, and sell it to people for what those people are willing to pay? Maybe we'll just call this thing a "free market"?