Aaron Judge

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Mister2Bits

I PC both Judge and Ohtani. Judge is having an amazing year and I hope he earns MVP.

For those of you who dont understand how Ohtani is still in the discussion, I dont know what to tell you. The dude has 20+ starts on the mound with a 2.8 ERA, 27 HR's and 5 triples. Legit the only player in AL or NL history to make at least 20 starts on the mound and hit five triples at the plate in the same season.

Get your head out of your butts - this is still a close race.

But the reason for that is MLB teams do not groom players to be both pitchers and hitters. Ohtaini is unique and while he does both good, this year, he's not doing both outstanding like last year.

[marl1220]

Originally Posted by Boo

Because he's doing something historic.


Gallo should probably get some MVP votes, his GIDP percentage is historic.

True. But I'm not sure how that validates him as the MVP.

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

But the reason for that is MLB teams do not groom players to be both pitchers and hitters. Ohtaini is unique and while he does both good, this year, he's not doing both outstanding like last year.

But he has 5 triples, on Tuesdays, while the sun is shining, and the pitcher has an even jersey number.

[BabaORiley]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

You're correct. I omitted "most" valuable. He is most valuable this year in that he brings people into the stadium and gets Internet buzz for the Angels.

The fact of the matter is the Angels suck with Ohtaini on the team and would suck with Ohtaini not on the team. Besides that and him not leading any offensive, defensive, or pitching category (besides Wild Pitches), I can't see any argument on why he should be MVP of the American League.

That you have over 45,000 posts on a baseball forum and can't appreciate the historic nature of what Ohtani has done these past two seasons, can't appreciate how he's taken his pitching up a notch after his bat doing the heavy lifting last season... I mean, it's just astounding to me. He's a top-shelf SP AND a top-shelf bat and he makes the Angels better.

I have Judge in the lead in the MVP race, FWIW, but what Ohtani is doing will almost definitely not be done again and hasn't been done before. No, not even Ruth. So, on that historical basis alone, I fully understand the argument that he should be MVP. I have Judge 1 and Ohtani 2 right now and expect it to stay that way but there's a quarter of a season left and I'll just enjoy these two ridiculous talents as a fan of the game.

[BabaORiley]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

But the reason for that is MLB teams do not groom players to be both pitchers and hitters. Ohtaini is unique and while he does both good, this year, he's not doing both outstanding like last year.

Cool, we'll see how many players are able to match what he's doing in the next couple decades. Given the roster flexibility that this provides, maybe teams will stop suppressing their dual-threat players that are capable of pitching/hitting at such a high level.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by BabaORiley

That you have over 45,000 posts on a baseball forum and can't appreciate the historic nature of what Ohtani has done these past two seasons, can't appreciate how he's taken his pitching up a notch after his bat doing the heavy lifting last season... I mean, it's just astounding to me. He's a top-shelf SP AND a top-shelf bat and he makes the Angels better.

I have Judge in the lead in the MVP race, FWIW, but what Ohtani is doing will almost definitely not be done again and hasn't been done before. No, not even Ruth. So, on that historical basis alone, I fully understand the argument that he should be MVP. I have Judge 1 and Ohtani 2 right now and expect it to stay that way but there's a quarter of a season left and I'll just enjoy these two ridiculous talents as a fan of the game.

Please define top shelf for me. Does top shelf equate to great ballplayer or a good ballplayer? Would a top shelf ballplayer be leading in more categories this year? Or does the fact that Ohtaini leads in next to no categories make him an MVP, because that's the confusing part to me. I don't care that he plays 2 positions and obviously neither do 29 other ball clubs or they would be doing the same thing by looking for talent in their minor leagues or in college and high school to find the next Ohtaini and make this a normal thing in the MLB instead of a unique situation.

As I said, he had an outstanding season last year and the MVP was well deserved. This season, he's just a good ballplayer; leading in almost nothing.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by BabaORiley

Cool, we'll see how many players are able to match what he's doing in the next couple decades. Given the roster flexibility that this provides, maybe teams will stop suppressing their dual-threat players that are capable of pitching/hitting at such a high level.

MLB teams are probably not going to do this or they would already have done it. Maybe one of the better baseball historians on here can give an explanation of why baseball teams didn't capitalize on what Babe Ruth could do as a pitcher and hitter and decided to go away from dual roles.

[BBases31]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

You're correct. I omitted "most" valuable. He is most valuable this year in that he brings people into the stadium and gets Internet buzz for the Angels.

The fact of the matter is the Angels suck with Ohtaini on the team and would suck with Ohtaini not on the team. Besides that and him not leading any offensive, defensive, or pitching category (besides Wild Pitches), I can't see any argument on why he should be MVP of the American League.

Well you can't see it because you are just making up Ohtani not leading anything. He leads the AL in strikeout rate. He's #1 in K/9 by over a half strikeout.

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by BBases31

Well you can't see it because you are just making up Ohtani not leading anything. He leads the AL in strikeout rate. He's #1 in K/9 by over a half strikeout.

That sounds like me saying Judge leads in HRs as well as balls hit past the outfield.

[christhecpa]

Babe Ruth played in a time where you had to be bereft of melanin to play in the majors
which kind of makes modern comparisons worthless.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by BBases31

Well you can't see it because you are just making up Ohtani not leading anything. He leads the AL in strikeout rate. He's #1 in K/9 by over a half strikeout.

Do they print baseball cards with the league leaders of that stat?

[BBases31]

Originally Posted by cnewby

That sounds like me saying Judge leads in HRs as well as balls hit past the outfield.

Brilliant analogy

[christhecpa]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

But the reason for that is MLB teams do not groom players to be both pitchers and hitters. Ohtaini is unique and while he does both good, this year, he's not doing both outstanding like last year.

Let's hope MLB doesn't "groom" any players.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by BBases31

Well you can't see it because you are just making up Ohtani not leading anything. He leads the AL in strikeout rate. He's #1 in K/9 by over a half strikeout.

I was using Baseball Reference which may have an error on their page.

This page below shows the leaders and he isn't listed as #1 in K/9:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...-leaders.shtml

His player page does show him with 12.4 which would be the highest, but it's not bolded indicating he's leading the league for some reason.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...htansh01.shtml

So if that was a mistake on Baseball reference's part, I'll change to say he is now leading in 2 good categories (Intentional Walks and K/9) and 1 bad category (Wild pitches). Those are hardly categories I would say makes him deserve the AL MVP over everything Judge is leading in though.

[BBases31]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

But the reason for that is MLB teams do not groom players to be both pitchers and hitters. Ohtaini is unique and while he does both good, this year, he's not doing both outstanding like last year.

It is astounding to me how under the radar Ohtani's pitching is this year on this board. But then again, most of this board just follows cards and not the sport. Ohtani has a 2.81 ERA and a 12.4 K/9 rate. That strikeout rate would rank him 6th best K rate in the AL in the last 20 years. He is a far better pitcher this year than last year.

It's way too easy to spot the card people that don't know the sport

[NYRE2PECT]

Originally Posted by christhecpa

Let's hope MLB doesn't "groom" any players.

You got me on this one, audible chuckle induced, well played.

[JRX]

For someone to beat Ohtani for the MVP they have to have a historic season and Judge is doing that 7.8fwar to 6.3fwar. 1.5 difference is basically a separate tier. We'll see what happens over the next month plus.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by BabaORiley

Cool, we'll see how many players are able to match what he's doing in the next couple decades. Given the roster flexibility that this provides, maybe teams will stop suppressing their dual-threat players that are capable of pitching/hitting at such a high level.

I think there are likely quite a few players that could have/are capable of doing it. The amount of stud pitchers in the majors that also batted .450 in high school and lead the district in Home Runs in huge. Likewise the amount of stud hitters that were also 95+ is massive. Guys like josh hamilton, joey gallo for instance come to mind. DeGrom was never gonna hit 50 HR but was a college SS until his senior year (hit a bomb of sale in college).

Not to takeaway anything from what he is doing, but I certainly think there are players that are capable of it.

[JRX]

Like Ohtani is 4th in the AL in pitching WAR and only has 8 fewer innings than Gausman. 5th in homers in the AL 8th in RBI, 12th in wRC+. What he's capable of is absurd and any player will tell you that. However, Judge is 100% having a historic season and should win the mvp if he finishes strong, but lets not hand waive what Ohtani does as a player.

[christhecpa]

Judge is going to have to leave the biggest market in baseball to have a chance to win in postseason.

[BabaORiley]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

MLB teams are probably not going to do this or they would already have done it. Maybe one of the better baseball historians on here can give an explanation of why baseball teams didn't capitalize on what Babe Ruth could do as a pitcher and hitter and decided to go away from dual roles.

I think it largely has to do with the lack of supply of players who could excel at both pitching and hitting as the roles became more specialized over time.

Yeah, Ohtani may not be leading the league in any categories but you ask what makes him top-shelf:

AL Ranks (assuming he makes the IP limit for rate stats)
K/9 - 1st
FIP - 3rd
Pitching WAR - tied 6th
ERA+ - tied 7th
ERA - 8th
W - 8th for a very bad Angels team
WHIP - 8th
H/9 - 9th
K's - 5th
K/BB - 5th

Just going off his pitching WAR, FIP, ERA+ - he's a top-7 SP in the AL. That's top-shelf. At times, he's been completely dominant on the mound.

His batting numbers are admittedly down but he's still 5th in HR, 8th in RBI, 8th in OPS, 7th in OPS+, 6th in wRC in the AL. I'd argue that a top-8 hitter in the AL qualifies as top-shelf.

You could quibble with his IP being too low or his PA being too high relative to peers but it's fairly safe to say he's an AL top-10 SP and top-10 hitter in 2022.

Again, I have Judge leading this race by a fairly decent margin right now but I have a very low tolerance for anyone who seems dismissive of what Ohtani's doing.

[BabaORiley]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I think there are likely quite a few players that could have/are capable of doing it. The amount of stud pitchers in the majors that also batted .450 in high school and lead the district in Home Runs in huge. Likewise the amount of stud hitters that were also 95+ is massive. Guys like josh hamilton, joey gallo for instance come to mind. DeGrom was never gonna hit 50 HR but was a college SS until his senior year (hit a bomb of sale in college).

Not to takeaway anything from what he is doing, but I certainly think there are players that are capable of it.

Wow. This take deserves to be unpacked by someone much smarter than myself.
You're saying that there are "likely quite a few players that are capable" of being top-10 pitchers/hitters in their respective league and then cite, as evidence:

- stud HS pitchers can also excel at hitting in HS
- stud HS hitters can throw 95+ MPH
- stud MLB pitchers were position players in college

Therefore, quite a few of these guys could excel at both at the MLB level?

[BBases31]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I think there are likely quite a few players that could have/are capable of doing it. The amount of stud pitchers in the majors that also batted .450 in high school and lead the district in Home Runs in huge. Likewise the amount of stud hitters that were also 95+ is massive. Guys like josh hamilton, joey gallo for instance come to mind. DeGrom was never gonna hit 50 HR but was a college SS until his senior year (hit a bomb of sale in college).

Not to takeaway anything from what he is doing, but I certainly think there are players that are capable of it.

Guy doing something that hasn't been done since Babe Ruth. "Yea lots can do it, they just don't". All time Blowout take right there

[marl1220]

Originally Posted by BBases31

Guy doing something that hasn't been done since Babe Ruth. "Yea lots can do it, they just don't". All time Blowout take right there

What exactly is your point in posting in this thread? I'm genuinely curious.

[BBases31]

Originally Posted by marl1220

What exactly is your point in posting in this thread? I'm genuinely curious.

Since when do we need a "point" to post on a message board?