RE: Bad Seller Alert - Lewis Garland Williams III (eBay: sportsfan85)

[gunboat82]

Here's yet another cautionary tale about using PayPal F&F to purchase cards... but also a warning to be careful in any dealings with this guy:

eBay: sportsfan85; PayPal E-mail: lewwill0039@yahoo; Name/Location: Lewis Garland Williams III, Lodi, CA.

Back in early February, Lewis sold me a PSA-slabbed Mike Trout auto for $650. I paid PayPal F&F and provided my mailing address. Lewis mailed the card to the wrong address (right name, house, and street number, wrong town and zip code). I didn't discover this until I asked him for the tracking number eight days later, and it showed that the card had already been delivered to someone in another town.

I immediately let Lewis know, and he blamed a USPS clerk for the error. He said he had given my address to a USPS clerk, who must have entered it wrong. The owner of the address where the card was delivered was listed in the White Pages, so I called him and explained the situation. He confirmed that he had received a package in my name with a card in it, and he said he'd put it in the mail the next day and mark it "Return to Sender."

When the package didn't turn up a week later, I submitted a USPS Missing Mail request. Lewis said he purchased $650 insurance on the package, but USPS refused to honor it because the package had reached its destination.

19 days after I paid for the card, it still hadn't turned up and USPS said they had no record of what happened after the carrier picked it up for return. At that point, I asked Lewis to refund the $650 and pursue an insurance claim with USPS. He refused.

Me:

If you don't get the card today or get any other information from USPS on your end, I think the best course would be to refund the $650 and file the insurance claim. I was optimistic when they first told me it was rejected and returned to sender, but that would have been 9 USPS business days ago as of today, and the Lawrence, MA hub doesn't have any new tracking info.

Lewis:

I’ve definitely not received it back to my address and I contacted the post master @ my local post office. He said he would try to track it down but unfortunately since the guy in MA who just put “return to sender” on the envelope, it wasn’t insured so if it’s lost then there isn’t much they can do.

I hope you understand that I can’t refund you back the $650 as of now until I get some kind of final answer. We are both in a shitty position because I’m out a $650 card and your out $650 in cash as of now.

Me:

You said a couple days ago that you might have to open an insurance claim, so I took that to mean you had insured it. Are you telling me that if the package is lost and never reaches me because it was sent to the wrong address, that you plan to keep the $650 even though I never received the card?

Lewis:

It was insured originally when I sent the package but the post office said that it only covers when the package from point A to Point B.
It doesn’t cover it being sent any other places which is BS ... it’s not fair that I loss my card potential forever either. We will have work out something because it’s not fair that you get all your money back & I’m out a $650 card

Me:

I understand why you’re upset, but generally the seller is obligated to get the item to the buyer. If I don’t get the card because my address was entered wrong at the point of delivery, then it’s absolutely fair that I get all my money back. As a seller, I’d never keep someone’s money in this scenario

Lewis:

I did everything right on my end by putting your correct address but the dumbass at the post office messed up and typed it in wrong. I totally understand your frustration and I’m completely frustrated too. I doubt I will ever get my card back but there has to be equal risk assumed in any transaction. Do you think it’s fair that you get your money back & I’m out my card?

Me:

Fair? Yes. That's exactly how these transactions work. It's in the Uniform Commercial Code and reflected in every state's laws. The seller is responsible for ensuring that the item is delivered to the correct address. If it's not delivered to the correct address and gets lost in the process, then the seller must refund the buyer's money and file an insurance claim. The seller is not allowed to keep the buyer's money until he's sure that he can recover on the insurance claim.

Lewis:

Well I don’t agree with you so we will just have to agree to disagree. I’m willing to pay you half of the $650 if my insurance claim is denied by the post office which I think is very fair. You seem like a level headed and fair person, so if you were in my shoes I would hope you would do the same thing.

Me:

I am level-headed and fair, which is why if I were in your shoes I would have refunded the entire $650 as soon as the buyer asked. Once the blameless buyer had his money back, I would have done my damnedest to track down the card or collect on my insurance claim. I would not, under any circumstances, tell the buyer I was keeping his money as an insurance policy in case USPS didn't come through.

Lewis didn't refund the money, leaving me to file a dispute with my bank (the investigation is still pending). Meanwhile, I got a call from the Postmaster this morning notifying me that they had located the missing package and that I could pick it up with a photo ID. I drove to the post office (2 hours round-trip). This is the package, which apparently went through hell:



Yes, the seller sent a $650 PSA-slabbed Trout in a plain white envelope with no padding. And when I opened it, there was a Panini base Vlad Guerrero Jr. inside. So either Lewis never sent the Trout, or someone at USPS stole it and decided it would be better to replace it with something and put it back in circulation than to just let the envelope stay lost in the USPS system. The Postmaster and I agree that it's unlikely the guy who put it back in the mail would have done this, because he could have simply denied ever receiving it and was very forthcoming with the USPS investigation.

I reached back out to Lewis, who assured me once again that none of this is his fault because he sends everything in plain envelopes, and this is a first.

TLDR version:

- Gunboat82 uses PayPal F&F because he wants to save money and is a trusting fool.
- Lewis/sportsfan85 inexplicably sends $650 Trout in PWE to wrong address.
- Lewis/sportsfan85 refuses to provide refund because he doesn't think it would be fair to him.
- PWE miraculously appears a couple weeks later, beat to hell, with a worthless base card inside instead of the $650 Trout.

[Bosoxfan5990]

This is absolutely incredible. The PWE ending was an M. Night Shyamalan twist. Where did you actually make the purchase? BO, social media, eBay, etc?

[hche]

Never use F&F. The guy never shipped the graded Trout.

[houdini]

Originally Posted by hche

Never use F&F. The guy never shipped the graded Trout.

exactly

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

This is absolutely incredible. The PWE ending was an M. Night Shyamalan twist. Where did you actually make the purchase? BO, social media, eBay, etc?

He originally had the used redemption listed on eBay. I sent an eBay message and asked if he had the actual card, and he said it was out for grading. When it came back, he reached out directly instead of listing it (presumably to avoid fees). He wanted to net $650. I was O.K. going outside eBay because it would have cost me around $800 after taxes if he listed it at a price that would net him $650 after fees.

So the short answer is that we connected on eBay and it moved to text messages.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by hche

Never use F&F. The guy never shipped the graded Trout.

Yeah, this is certainly a cautionary tale for anyone (like me) who wants to get a card cheaper and is banking on people living up to their eBay reputation outside eBay.

USPS has filed a mail theft report, and they could go back to the original recipient and ask him to describe what was in the envelope he put back in the mail. The recipient said he opened the envelope before he realized it wasn't for him, and he confirmed that there was a baseball card inside. He could have swapped out the cards himself, realizing the Trout was valuable, but that's riskier than simply saying the envelope was empty, that he never received it, that it must have gotten tossed out as junk mail, etc.

Of course, I'd be surprised if the theft investigation goes that far.

[BostonNut]

So this clown has the guy at the post office hand write the addresses on his PWE’s for him?

What a lying doofus.

[shrevecity]

I am shocked the usps even let that ship that way.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

So this clown has the guy at the post office hand write the addresses on his PWE’s for him?

What a lying doofus.

Yeah, the Postmaster and I were talking about that, so it's definitely a wrinkle in their theft investigation. Lewis' stance that it was a USPS screw-up was slightly more plausible when I thought he had a label printed at the post office. There are four towns in Massachusetts with my street number and name, and some search bars will autofill the address alphabetically by town if you're not careful. But I've never heard of a USPS clerk taking dictation from a customer and writing an address by hand. That's white-glove service.

Needless to say, I was floored when the Postmaster handed me a flimsy plain white envelope with my name handwritten on it. I was definitely expecting a bubble mailer with a printed label.

[FBallHobbies]

If he wanted to Net $650, should have sent $674 G&S so you would have been protected
Buying a high end card like that, an extra $24 is worth the security

[Jim65]

The seller committed theft of service on both EBay and PayPal and you expected him to be honest and do the right thing?

[jkampis]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Yeah, the Postmaster and I were talking about that, so it's definitely a wrinkle in their theft investigation. Lewis' stance that it was a USPS screw-up was slightly more plausible when I thought he had a label printed at the post office. There are four towns in Massachusetts with my street number and name, and some search bars will autofill the address alphabetically by town if you're not careful. But I've never heard of a USPS clerk taking dictation from a customer and writing an address by hand. That's white-glove service.

Needless to say, I was floored when the Postmaster handed me a flimsy plain white envelope with my name handwritten on it. I was definitely expecting a bubble mailer with a printed label.

I’d be floored if I received a $650 card in a bubble mailer. Anything above $100, I ship well padded in a box.

The seller jumped through an incredible number of hoops to scam you. Seems like since the money was sent F&F, he could have gotten away with shipping nothing at all.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by FBallHobbies

If he wanted to Net $650, should have sent $674 G&S so you would have been protected
Buying a high end card like that, an extra $24 is worth the security

For sure. The good news is that it looks like the bank dispute will be resolved in my favor. I explained PayPal’s F&F policy and acknowledged that there was no recourse through PayPal, and the bank didn’t seem to care. They were more interested in the theft aspect than whether PayPal got its cut.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by jkampis

I’d be floored if I received a $650 card in a bubble mailer. Anything above $100, I ship well padded in a box.

The seller jumped through an incredible number of hoops to scam you. Seems like since the money was sent F&F, he could have gotten away with shipping nothing at all.

Personally, I would’ve used one of the eBay authenticity guarantee packages I’ve been hoarding. But I can say that I almost never get boxes outside that process. It’s been bubble mailers with varying degrees of protection inside, ranging from none to cardboard sandwiches to extra bubble wrap. The box isn’t a bad idea, but I’ve learned not to expect it and set the bar lower: like don’t use a letter envelope.

The hoops he jumped through have me scratching my head, because it just doesn’t make sense. I have his name, address, phone number, and e-mail. The local police confirmed that the name and address were correct. He has a job where he stands to lose more than $650 if he’s caught committing mail fraud. I’ve seen seller scams before, and it’s usually people who have less to lose.

All that said, I couldn’t have scripted this one if I tried, so all bets are off.

[shrevecity]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

For sure. The good news is that it looks like the bank dispute will be resolved in my favor. I explained PayPal’s F&F policy and acknowledged that there was no recourse through PayPal, and the bank didn’t seem to care. They were more interested in the theft aspect than whether PayPal got its cut.

Do not be shocked though if paypal does not lock your account.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by shrevecity

Do not be shocked though if paypal does not lock your account.

I'm prepared for that. So far, this is the only e-mail I received from PayPal:

We wanted to let you know that we received a request from your financial institution to cancel a payment you sent on February 11, 2023.

We’ve returned the money to your financial institution.

For more information on this bank reversal, please contact your bank directly.

Thank you for your cooperation. We appreciate your business.

[oldgoldy97]

Next I want a cautionary tale of sticking your head in a lit oven.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Next I want a cautionary tale of sticking your head in a lit oven.

That was a different thread. There was a spirited debate, but the consensus was to avoid it.

[BeardedVol]

Also the PO will not put a tracking label on a PWE -- seller just added to the scam by doing that

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by BeardedVol

Also the PO will not put a tracking label on a PWE -- seller just added to the scam by doing that

Can you flesh this out a bit? There's a USPS tracking label on the envelope, and it was tracked all the way to the destination... it was just the wrong destination.

[shrevecity]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Can you flesh this out a bit? There's a USPS tracking label on the envelope, and it was tracked all the way to the destination... it was just the wrong destination.

It should not have gotten by the usps clerk. It has a counter label on it so it somehow did. Unlesstge other person had to pay. Once opened you are usually not able to do a rts

[shrevecity]

He could have just not shipped anything and been in better position. Now there is a paper trail. Although the odds prosecution would ever happen are very slim. You have a solid civil case but collecting on those can be easier said than done

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by shrevecity

He could have just not shipped anything and been in better position. Now there is a paper trail. Although the odds prosecution would ever happen are very slim. You have a solid civil case but collecting on those can be easier said than done

I have a pending credit in my bank account, so it looks like I'll be made whole and will no longer have a basis for a small-claims action.

I don't know if the bank credit means PayPal will pull the money from the seller's account, or if he gets to keep it. I agree that prosecution would never happen. Mail fraud is a serious offense, but they won't pursue it unless the case is gift-wrapped with a bow (and probably not even then). The Postmaster only got involved because I was persistent.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that this seller sucks. At worst, he's a criminal. At best, he has questionable shipping practices and disclaims any responsibility for delivery snafus.

I share some blame here simply because I was willing to use a payment method that avoids PayPal fees. But even if others are scrupulous or smart enough to avoid that particular pitfall, I'd still recommend that they avoid this seller entirely.

[49ersSF]

Apparently this guy is a MLB umpire.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Lew_Williams

https://www.closecallsports.com/2020...-williams.html

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Apparently this guy is a MLB umpire.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Lew_Williams

https://www.closecallsports.com/2020...-williams.html

Uh, is this really him?