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Old 11-11-2013, 10:34 AM   #376
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Just an opinion

1- As card collector, this is annoying. I don't own any from this set, but if I did I would be upset. It seems pretty obvious that this isn't optimal from a collector's perspective.

2- If I wasn't a collector, I see nothing wrong with it. If people are willing to buy it, might as well make money.

3- If I was in the same situation, it's hard to really blame kencope for doing this. I think I would put a disclaimer in the auction, but in the end even that doesn't matter much because there is no discernable difference in the cards. Very much a gray area imo.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:38 AM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kencope View Post
No, you can't. You're making an assumption which aids an opinion. It's not a fact. But, I wouldn't expect most of the people posting in here to base their judgments and ideas on fact.
So tell me then why Fleer would NOT cut up the sheets and insert them into packs? What is your logic behind their reasoning for never inserting these uncut sheets into retail packs?


What you are suggesting is Fleer was going to cut those sheets and put them into packs?? But they didn't. Your argument becomes pointless because you argue to support the negative. It just doesnt work that way.

Like I said, if fleer was going to put them in packs, they would have done so. But they didnt. Thats the jist of it.

Last edited by Orangejello727; 11-11-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:50 AM   #378
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I've never asserted fleer was going to put them into packs. I have suggested that they could later use them as replacements for other cards as companies clearly do from time to time. The fact is you don't know, I don't know, so we're arguing a point which cannot be proven by anyone, which is a pointless waste of time (as much of this thread is).

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So tell me then why Fleer would NOT cut up the sheets and insert them into packs? What is your logic behind their reasoning for never inserting these uncut sheets into retail packs?


What you are suggesting is Fleer was going to cut those sheets and put them into packs?? But they didn't. Your argument becomes pointless because you argue to support the negative. It just doesnt work that way.

Like I said, if fleer was going to put them in packs, they would have done so. But they didnt. Thats the jist of it.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:01 AM   #379
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edited.....
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Last edited by wheeler281; 11-11-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:02 AM   #380
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wheeler - what is the point of your post?
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:05 AM   #381
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Is one pack pulled and the other from a sheet or they both from a sheet
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:09 AM   #382
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Is one pack pulled and the other from a sheet or they both from a sheet
he has said in this thread that the one without the disclaimer is one he traded for that he did not cut.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:11 AM   #383
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he has said in this thread that the one without the disclaimer is one he traded for that he did not cut.
ahhh got ya Thanks. There is the problem with the whole ordeal. What a mess that only deception by cutting up sheets can bring
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:11 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by kencope View Post
I've never asserted fleer was going to put them into packs. I have suggested that they could later use them as replacements for other cards as companies clearly do from time to time. The fact is you don't know, I don't know, so we're arguing a point which cannot be proven by anyone, which is a pointless waste of time (as much of this thread is).
Fine, if they use them as replacements, then you need to make sure 1 of them is removed from the population before a replacement is inserted. Again, this is done to keep the integrity of the population. When you decided to play god or should I say fleer in this example, did you remove a jambalaya from population before you decided to add an extra?

You and I both know that uncut sheets are not made for distribution nor to cut up and put into population. I asked you about the bowman super fractors sheets that were cut up and put into population and got no answer.

I really dont care what you do. All I know is by doing what you did, you ruining the integrity of limiation when it comes to Jambalayas and their rarity. The last thing a person wants to see is someone dumping more cards into the market of the one they own a paid a premium for because it was limited. Now having you increase the population, you pretty much devalue his investment/collection and you add the scepticism to the hobby which deters people from having confidence in high value cards and their population.

Thanks for ruining it for some of us.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:13 AM   #385
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That has already been discussed earlier in this thread. One was cut from a sheet by me, the other is a card that I traded for from someone who said they were the original owner and pulled it from the pack. It is definitely not one that was but from the sheet by me.

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Is one pack pulled and the other from a sheet or they both from a sheet
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:15 AM   #386
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Wrong again. People have already given several examples of card companies releasing cards as REPLACEMENTS FOR OTHER CARDS that were not inserted into packs and the same card was not removed from the population. So, your argument of integrity of the population only has merit if you're up in arms about all of the card companies doing the same thing, which they regularly do.

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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Fine, if they use them as replacements, then you need to make sure 1 of them is removed from the population before a replacement is inserted. Again, this is done to keep the integrity of the population. When you decided to play god or should I say fleer in this example, did you remove a jambalaya from population before you decided to add an extra?

You and I both know that uncut sheets are not made for distribution nor to cut up and put into population. I asked you about the bowman super fractors sheets that were cut up and put into population and got no answer.

I really dont care what you do. All I know is by doing what you did, you ruining the integrity of limiation when it comes to Jambalayas and their rarity. The last thing a person wants to see is someone dumping more cards into the market of the one they own a paid a premium for because it was limited. Now having you increase the population, you pretty much devalue his investment/collection and you add the scepticism to the hobby which deters people from having confidence in high value cards and their population.

Thanks for ruining it for some of us.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:24 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by kencope View Post
Wrong again. People have already given several examples of card companies releasing cards as REPLACEMENTS FOR OTHER CARDS that were not inserted into packs and the same card was not removed from the population. So, your argument of integrity of the population only has merit if you're up in arms about all of the card companies doing the same thing, which they regularly do.
Id give you that argument if you were the card companies and you produced and owned the cards distributed. But you aren't. You are just another guy looking to making a buck by trying to mimic and piggy back off the manufacturers by acting as if you are them to make money. And again, you arent Fleer. So telling us that you are doing what fleer would have done does not justify it. Like I stated.. If fleer wanted to release those cards into production THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SO. But they didnt. Having you do it for them because you feel they would have is not the same as Fleer doing it.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:28 AM   #388
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Id give you that argument if you were the card companies and you produced and owned the cards distributed. But you aren't. You are just another guy looking to making a buck by trying to mimic and piggy back off the manufacturers by acting as if you are them to make money. And again, you arent Fleer. So telling us that you are doing what fleer would have done does not justify it. Like I stated.. If fleer wanted to release those cards into production THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SO. But they didnt. Having you do it for them because you feel they would have is not the same as Fleer doing it.
So in the example I was talking about, what if a year ago UD went bankrupt and sold stuff like that Lopez card? Clearly it couldn't be sold as it was never meant to go public, but oh wait, 4 years after the product was released, they used it as a redemption replacement.

Who knows what cards companies are still holding and may release one day?

No one can say for certain one way or the other, so it's a pretty useless and circular argument.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:39 AM   #389
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So in the example I was talking about, what if a year ago UD went bankrupt and sold stuff like that Lopez card? Clearly it couldn't be sold as it was never meant to go public, but oh wait, 4 years after the product was released, they used it as a redemption replacement.

Who knows what cards companies are still holding and may release one day?

No one can say for certain one way or the other, so it's a pretty useless and circular argument.
Just liken it any other investment out there that people purchase and expect a value to be deemed at purchase.

Imagine a bank released more shares during a stock split and gave you nothing for your existing shares. WOuld you be cool with that? Having your shares only worth the same amount before and after a stock split?

How would you like to own /10 card and find out some guy went around printing up more /10 from uncut sheets and added to the population?? Would that be okay?

Then using the guise that "the company would have done it anyways" as the excuse. What next? Trim vintage cards to look better because Topps would want you to be make them look better?
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:41 AM   #390
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Alright, I've spent waayyyyyyy more time than I should answering and re-answering the same questions. And, at this point people's hypothetical examples to support their argument are just getting ridiculous. So, this my last post in this thread. Feel free to keep arguing amongst yourselves for amusement, though.

Happy collecting everyone!
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:48 AM   #391
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Its clear that the cards cut from sheets are less desirable in the eyes of MOST collectors, myself included. Should Ken have clearly stated that these were cut in the initial listing? Absolutely.

That said, he did change the listing to explain this, has made himself available to answer any and all questions and clearly explained his POV. Everyone does not have to agree but the lynch mobbing that goes on around here is ridiculous.

Bottom line is the Jambalaya inserts have some more cards in the gen pop and because this has been brought to light, the market should adjust accordingly. End of the day, its not like there have been 1000 sheets to hit the market. We do not see new Jambalayas hitting ebay in droves. I wouldn't be shocked if the market overreacts to the news of the sheet cut cards but I think those saying Ken's actions have killed the set is a tad bit hyperbolic.

I don't understand why this has to be another 15 page thread rehashing the same exact opinions and attacks. Its clear no one is changing their stance on this one so can't it just be put to rest?
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:49 AM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kencope View Post
I don't have any. I'm saying that neither of us knows, they're both opinions.



Paul - Your comparison is ridiculous (using something that is serial #'d vs. not and so low and two cards that are clearly different) and the disclaimer is clearly there, so anyone that can read knows exactly what they're getting.
You don't have any?

You multiple times stated these cards were meant to be released by Fleer and you are just doing what they intended.

You continue to lie and manipulate and deceive.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:51 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by kencope View Post
I've never asserted fleer was going to put them into packs. I have suggested that they could later use them as replacements for other cards as companies clearly do from time to time. The fact is you don't know, I don't know, so we're arguing a point which cannot be proven by anyone, which is a pointless waste of time (as much of this thread is).
Your logic is based on factors that don't really apply.

Yet you ignore any logic that is based on factors that do apply.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:53 AM   #394
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Wrong again. People have already given several examples of card companies releasing cards as REPLACEMENTS FOR OTHER CARDS that were not inserted into packs and the same card was not removed from the population. So, your argument of integrity of the population only has merit if you're up in arms about all of the card companies doing the same thing, which they regularly do.
IN WHAT YEAR KEN?

The 2013 process is 100% different then the 1997 process. The fact that you try to manipulate current day practice to defend yourself is a flat out joke and proves you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:55 AM   #395
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Ken why is your cut sheet Pippen at 24 hr auction now?

Trying to get rid of it before more people realize the scam you are pulling.

LOL
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:42 PM   #396
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So based on what I've read.. Kencope has admitted that he actually knows nothing about what his sheets of cards were for and nothing about how they were cut.

The description if his auctions should read ..

" I KNOW NOTHING . ITS JUST MY OPINION "
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:44 PM   #397
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Ken why is your cut sheet Pippen at 24 hr auction now?

Trying to get rid of it before more people realize the scam you are pulling.

LOL
NAILED IT!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:46 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by murrke03 View Post
You don't have any?

You multiple times stated these cards were meant to be released by Fleer and you are just doing what they intended.

You continue to lie and manipulate and deceive.
If he actually said that then you know what you need to know about just based on that. Quite discouraging
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Old 11-11-2013, 02:06 PM   #399
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NAILED IT!!!!!!!!!
Shady action after shady action.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:04 PM   #400
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I will preface this whole post by saying I understand why people get bent out of shape by the whole "cutting-from-an-uncut-sheet" thing...

That said...

I'm a graphic designer for a fortune 500 company, and deal with printers on a daily basis. I have some printers who crank out great pieces for me consistently. Sometimes, die-cutting is off. Sometimes, it's perfect.

If I'm not mistaken (and I may be, but pretty sure I'm not) the uncut sheets were sent off to a shop with a die, and cut professionally. It's not like someone sat down at their kitchen table with a pair of kid's scissors, or even an X-acto, and went to town.

Now, again, I get that people want the cards to be cut by Fleer. But, who's to say that the shop that cut these didn't do a better job? And who's to say that Fleer does all their in-house trimming anyway? For all we know, they farmed their entire printing/cutting/packing process out to one, two, or three shops?

At the end of the day, so long as these things weren't butchered, there really is no difference.

And certainly, Beckett uses the EXACT same grading process (well, subjective to the person who grades it) and standards for all cards, whether they came direct from the manufacturer or if my 7-year-old cut it with his art class scissors. A 9 for an edge is a 9 for an edge, no matter how that edge came to be.

If these were raw cards, I can understand people's frustration. But, they're not. They're graded. If you're dropping that kind of cash I can understand why you'd want to know the provenance, but if it were me throwing around thousands of dollars, most likely it's a PC card, and as long as Beckett or PSA says it's a good cut, that's enough for me.

Off my soapbox now.
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