NL CY YOUNG

[Swingman]

BTW King Felix is the best pitcher in the game hands down. Please do not bring him up because I know he is a beast and always has been.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Did you forget Gio played on Oakland when the weren't winning 20 straight? Team was down right terrible at hitting when he played there. Still won 15+ in consecutive seasons

Yes, I conveniently forgot (chose to omit) Gio's 2010 and 2011 campaigns because -- and someone, please help me out if I'm wrong here -- it's 2012, and we are talking about the predicted winner of the 2012 NL Cy Young. Perhaps I'm missing something, though? Did Gio's 2010 and 2011 run support in Oakland affect his 2012 win total in Washington? Throw me a bone here, guys.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

BTW King Felix is the best pitcher in the game hands down. Please do not bring him up because I know he is a beast and always has been.

I only brought Felix up because of this:

Originally Posted by Swingman

Crazy thing is, and not to turn this into a race issue because that's not what this thread is about but check the last time a latin/black won the NL Cy Young.. 1997 Pedro Martinez, before that since 85 and 81, baseball is all about politics boys, I don't know if you guys are starting to figure that out yet.

I'm still struggling to understand why race may be a factor at play here.

[pmannings#1fan]

Originally Posted by Swingman

BTW King Felix is the best pitcher in the game hands down. Please do not bring him up because I know he is a beast and always has been.

Don't worry we won't since he is in the AL!

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

I only brought Felix up because of this:



I'm still struggling to understand why race may be a factor at play here.

I clearly stated NL not AL.... Ryan Braun for instance is a white Jew who plays for the Milwaukee Brewers a Bud Selig endorsed team. You really think he didnt take performance enhancing drugs or did they throw him a bone to save the pretty boys image? I just find it weird latinos have had notoriously great pitching in past years and have not been given a Cy Young in the NL in years. Could just be a coincidence but hey what do I know..

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by pmannings#1fan

Don't worry we won't since he is in the AL!

Well then you might wanna check previous posts because I wasn't the one who brough him up!

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

I clearly stated NL not AL.... Ryan Braun for instance is a white Jew who plays for the Milwaukee Brewers a Bud Selig endorsed team. You really think he didnt take performance enhancing drugs or did they throw him a bone to save the pretty boys image? I just find it weird latinos have had notoriously great pitching in past years and have not been given a Cy Young in the NL in years. Could just be a coincidence but hey what do I know..

...but a Venezuelan won the Cy Young in the American League two years ago. Are the politics really that much different in the National League?

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

Yes, I conveniently forgot (chose to omit) Gio's 2010 and 2011 campaigns because -- and someone, please help me out if I'm wrong here -- it's 2012, and we are talking about the predicted winner of the 2012 NL Cy Young. Perhaps I'm missing something, though? Did Gio's 2010 and 2011 run support in Oakland affect his 2012 win total in Washington? Throw me a bone here, guys.

No but if you have a clue about baseball you would understand how much harder it is to pitch in the AL than it is the NL. Gio has excelled with both leagues with run support and without. No free outs in the AL.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

...but a Venezuelan won the Cy Young in the American League two years ago. Are the politics really that much different in the National League?

Why wasn't Melky conviniently acquitted of roids but pretty boy MVP Braun was? Oh ya they forgot to seal a bag...... Right

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Did you forget Gio played on Oakland when the weren't winning 20 straight? Team was down right terrible at hitting when he played there. Still won 15+ in consecutive seasons

None of that changes the fact that he is 3rd in overall RS this season.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

No but if you have a clue about baseball you would understand how much harder it is to pitch in the AL than it is the NL. Gio has excelled with both leagues with run support and without. No free outs in the AL.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Gio pitched in the American League in 2012. My bad.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Why wasn't Melky conviniently acquitted of roids but pretty boy MVP Braun was? Oh ya they forgot to seal a bag...... Right

Can someone remind me which team Bartolo Colon played for and which league that's in? Thanks.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Gio pitched in the American League in 2012. My bad.

Are you really that ignorant? I'm done arguing this, GO DICKEY, GO CUETO! GO all the bums that have never done a damn thing in their careers! Whoohoo

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

Can someone remind me which team Bartolo Colon played for and which league that's in? Thanks.

Talk to me about Ryan Dempster this year in the NL and then his move to the AL... Thanks.

[lb_sa]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Are you really that ignorant? I'm done arguing this, GO DICKEY, GO CUETO! GO all the bums that have never done a damn thing in their careers! Whoohoo

Dude, what the hell does doing anything in their career have to do with winning the Cy Young this year? Absolutely NOTHING!

Mike Trout shouldn't win MVP because he hasn't done anything in his career also? He hasn't proved it long enough so he is out of the running too I guess. That is the most ludicrous thing I've heard on this board in a while.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Are you really that ignorant? I'm done arguing this, GO DICKEY, GO CUETO! GO all the bums that have never done a damn thing in their careers! Whoohoo

Here's the part you seem to have a little trouble grasping: voting for the 2012 NL Cy Young does not take 2010 and 2011 into account.

I am not disputing that Gio is a great pitcher. You're right, he has pitched well in both leagues. All I am suggesting is that there is evidence that shows that this year, Gio's success (wins) is partially due to exceptional run support. His WHIP and ERA, while quite good, are not quite at that elite level yet. I think we both agreed that this race can swing any which way in September -- we'll see what happens. Right now, I still think Cueto has had the best 2012 campaign in the National League and there is a lot of evidence to support that.

And please, enough with the race politics conspiracy theories. MLB would be foolish to downplay the accomplishments of the Latin players. Latin America is the future of the game. I do think it was very convenient that you specified the lack of National League Cy Young winners in recent years because since 2004, the American League has had 4 Latino winners (and that doesn't include Sabathia).

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Talk to me about Ryan Dempster this year in the NL and then his move to the AL... Thanks.

Talk to me about how the 2012 Cy Young voting takes 2011 and 2010 into account...thanks.

[calculusdork]

Swingman ... I'm sure you're a nice guy, but man you are all over the place with your arguments. I think it's awesome that you're related to one of the best pitchers in all of baseball, but that has noooooooothing to do with his Cy Young bid, or how past years' stats have to do with this year's stats, or which league is harder to pitch in, or racial discrimination, or any of those other things that you brought up that I'm too lazy to go look through. Next time you want to make an argument you should think things through first.

[BSLV9]

Btw, which site is considered the best for WAR comparisons? It feels very made up in this instance. Certainly it's a great comparative stat, but how can baseball-reference and fangraphs be this completely different?

Also, I wouldn't say the NL is THAT much easier to pitch in than the AL. Maybe you allow more home runs due to more pitchers parks, but it's not like if Dickey or Kershaw were in the AL they'd give up 30 more runs a season. There's a reason the last two World Series have been won by the NL. (Yes, Dempster got lit up by the Yankees and the Angels, but he was NOT going to maintain that low ERA, in the NL or the AL. Remember he gave up 3+ runs in his two starts leaving the NL to the Pirates and the Cardinals.)

[lb_sa]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

Swingman ... I'm sure you're a nice guy, but man you are all over the place with your arguments. I think it's awesome that you're related to one of the best pitchers in all of baseball, but that has noooooooothing to do with his Cy Young bid, or how past years' stats have to do with this year's stats, or which league is harder to pitch in, or racial discrimination, or any of those other things that you brought up that I'm too lazy to go look through. Next time you want to make an argument you should think things through first.

And to make his arguement even more stupid.. He is talking #@#@#@#@ about Cueto and Dickey not having done anything in their careers. Well, I did a little digging.


Gonzalez - 5 seasons, cumulative ERA - 4.55
Cueto - 5 seasons, cumulative ERA - 3.55

An ENTIRE run better in ERA over their careers, and over the past two seasons, Cueto is at 2.44 compared to Gio at 3.05. Not to mention Cueto pitches half of his games in the most run producing park in the MLB.

Lol.

[burgbasher]

Originally Posted by btimm

When people use WAR as a debate-ender, I immediately dismiss their opinions. It is a stat to be used as an evaluation tool, not for a totality determination people.

Btimm really didn't think i was useing this as a debate ender . John didn't think Gio was really the second best pitcher on the Nats,so i threw up the war to show their value's, that's all nothing more nothing less . As far as total determination it would be Gio as the ace of the Nats but to each their own.

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by BSLV9

Btw, which site is considered the best for WAR comparisons? It feels very made up in this instance. Certainly it's a great comparative stat, but how can baseball-reference and fangraphs be this completely different?

Also, I wouldn't say the NL is THAT much easier to pitch in than the AL. Maybe you allow more home runs due to more pitchers parks, but it's not like if Dickey or Kershaw were in the AL they'd give up 30 more runs a season. There's a reason the last two World Series have been won by the NL. (Yes, Dempster got lit up by the Yankees and the Angels, but he was NOT going to maintain that low ERA, in the NL or the AL. Remember he gave up 3+ runs in his two starts leaving the NL to the Pirates and the Cardinals.)

All about the DH. Instead of a pitcher, you've got an extra power hitter.

[Swingman]

Ok guys, to each their own. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Nothing against any of you guys I just view things different and I am obviously biased towards Gio. There are 30 games left we'll see what happens.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by lb_sa

And to make his arguement even more stupid.. He is talking #@#@#@#@ about Cueto and Dickey not having done anything in their careers. Well, I did a little digging.


Gonzalez - 5 seasons, cumulative ERA - 4.55
Cueto - 5 seasons, cumulative ERA - 3.55

An ENTIRE run better in ERA over their careers, and over the past two seasons, Cueto is at 2.44 compared to Gio at 3.05. Not to mention Cueto pitches half of his games in the most run producing park in the MLB.

Lol.

Last I checked Gio was at 2.98 but that's just me. Season isn't over my fiend that's all I'm saying. A lot changed in 5 starts.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by burgbasher

Btimm really didn't think i was useing this as a debate ender . John didn't think Gio was really the second best pitcher on the Nats,so i threw up the war to show their value's, that's all nothing more nothing less . As far as total determination it would be Gio as the ace of the Nats but to each their own.

He is the Ace on the Nats, ask anybody in the clubhouse they know who the horse is there. Stras and JZ are beasts too though. Nats will be tough to beat this year even without Stras.