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Old 01-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #51
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Its obvious wrong doing took place.Love them or hate them Upper Deck will continue to make trading cards as long as people are willing to buy them.Whether or not those trading cards are licensed is up to the licensors and as long as Ud or any other manufacturer is willing to pay the Nfl,mlb,nba and nhl will take their money.
Its all about the $$ and that is the bottom line.Sad but true.
Im sure the leagues are familiar with Uds business practices and they will continue to put up with them cause Ud is paying big bucks.
Greed is not good at least not for the collectors the ones that truly love this hobby.
I truly hope that the hobby returns to the glory days but actions like counterfeiting cards by a leading manufacturer certainly isnt the way to get there.

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Old 01-08-2010, 02:43 PM   #52
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I'm not defending Upper Deck against wrongdoing. I'm defending them against the use of the word counterfeiting, when they had the exclusive rights to produce and distribute the cards in question. There are a lot of things to take Upper Deck to task for, but the bastardization of the word counterfeit in relation to this case is not one of them. This case spotlights their unethical behavior, but it is not a case of counterfeiting.
Mike,

"counterfeiting" is named in the lawsuit. It's one of the several things Konami is suing for come January 26th. Konami believes upper deck did counterfeit and says they have overwhelming proof of it. Again, we'll find out soon enough.


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So if we listen to a certain board member, every card company is unethical except one. That one ethical company just so happens to be the one said board member constantly shills for, deals in, and collects. Convenient how that works.
If this is pointed towards me, (and I'm not saying it is), I resent it. "Constantly shills for"...what??? I deny that wholeheartedly.

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Look, all of these companies are in this for one reason - to make money. That is what all for-profit businesses exist to do. Nobody starts a business to lose money. Why this is scandalous or shocking to some is beyond me and anyone who thinks their favorite card company isn't doing some shady things is a fool. They are all doing something. Some just are dumber and get caught more often.
The mafia was in business to make money too. However, the way they went about it was/is illegal. Again, not sure if what's bolded above is directed at me or not, but calling someone a fool without proof is foolish in and of itself.

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You want to drive UD out of business? Super. They will be replaced by an "ethical" upstart company like Razor. You may not like Topps or UD and that is completely fine. Don't buy their products. However, they have been in the business for 58 years and 21 years respectively, have made some very solid products, they have resources, they have know-how, and they possess name recognition, all of which are vital to the hobby's survival. Putting them out of business isn't going to solve anything because a marketplace of Razor, Just Minors, Classic, ITG, Sportskings, etc. will not survive. Everyone should be rooting for the few remaining major card companies (UD, Topps, and Panini) to survive because the hobby will be better for it.

Sorry for the rant.
This hobby is not "currently" better because of upper deck's antics. I will not be rooting for them to survive. They had their chance and in my opinion, they took advantage of everyone they could, including little kids that can't defend themselves, in order to make a profit. That's not the type of business I want to support. You can if you want, but I sure as heck am not.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:48 PM   #53
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I don't think its right to just sit back and let a $%*@ storm erupt because a few people have a vendetta against the company and want to see their image tarnished as much as possible.
I'll add in that part of the whole thing for me is I don't care for those that fall into the sheep mentality. I mean the "OMG, WHAT ELSE HAS UD COUNTERFEITED!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHAT LIARS!!! SELL ALL YOUR UD CARDS IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!" types (not naming anyone or suggesting anyone here did/does that, it's just common to see sheep do dumb stuff in all aspects of life simply because they either didn't get the details or don't have the brainpower to understand what's right in front of their face).
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:50 PM   #54
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For the record, I haven't opened a pack of Upper Deck cards since probably 2005 or 2006. I don't constantly post positive or negative things about the company with some agenda for or against their licensed cards and how they may or may not be better than some other companies unlicensed cards. I don't really care one way or another what happens to them and I think they along with almost every other manufacturer have severe flaws. But this is simply not a case of counterfeiting, and I don't think its right to just sit back and let a $%*@ storm erupt because a few people have a vendetta against the company and want to see their image tarnished as much as possible. There are a lot of wrong doings and unethical behavior that one COULD point to in this case. Counterfeiting is not one of them (despite the Upper Deck bashers wanting that word to be at the forefront of any mention of this story).
I don't care if it's counterfeiting or stealing old ladies' purses. I am pointing out that upper deck apparently did wrong knowingly. I don't have a vendetta against them for any other reason than them being unethical and taking advantage of unsuspecting collectors. To me, they have a fiduciary responsibility to practice honor and integrity in the card collecting world, and they are clearly not doing that. I'm only arguing over the word counterfeiting because it's clearly named in the lawsuit, yet people don't seem to understand that.

I have not mentioned on word about any other "favorite" company of mine. You guys keep eluding to it, but I haven't made any reference to it what-so-ever.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:50 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by mwheeler27 View Post
Mike,


If this is pointed towards me, (and I'm not saying it is), I resent it. "Constantly shills for"...what??? I deny that wholeheartedly.



lol.



Anyway, the manufacturing of these cards was ruled unauthorized, making them counterfeit. It isn't a question of who made them, it is a question of if the license provider authorized them, which they apparently did not, ergo counterfeit. Maybe a improper use of the word as we know it, but it is what it is.

From reading that article it is really just determining the value of damage Upper Deck caused at this point, I'd love to hear some numbers but there is a surprisingly small amount of information about this online. The issue with redistributing with Vintage I believe was a part of another lawsuit (a cease production restraining order last year) and I'm not really sure if it is part of this one at all. Hopefully a news source can find out the full facts about the case details, accusations, possible penalties/fines, etc.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:55 PM   #56
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honor and integrity in the card collecting world
This makes my day. I was going to respond to it but my unicorn is attacking the Loch Ness Monster so I have to hop into my flying car and seek assistance from an honest politician.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:58 PM   #57
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lol.



Anyway, the manufacturing of these cards was ruled unauthorized, making them counterfeit. It isn't a question of who made them, it is a question of if the license provider authorized them, which they apparently did not, ergo counterfeit. Maybe a improper use of the word as we know it, but it is what it is.
For counterfeiting to happen the intent MUST be fraudulent. There was no fraudulent intent here. Therefore the word does not apply to this situation. The law suit is not alleging counterfeiting, the law suit is alleging breach of contract. The lawyers for Konami have used the word in conjunction with their case, and may very well believe thats what happened, but the outcome of this case will not prove or disprove counterfeiting. And going by the legal definition of the word, it has no place in this case. This is simply not a matter of counterfeiting.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:59 PM   #58
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This makes my day. I was going to respond to it but my unicorn is attacking the Loch Ness Monster so I have to hop into my flying car and seek assistance from an honest politician.
That was awesome!
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:01 PM   #59
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This makes my day. I was going to respond to it but my unicorn is attacking the Loch Ness Monster so I have to hop into my flying car and seek assistance from an honest politician.
Put me down for $20 on the monster drowning your unicorn (sorry).


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Old 01-08-2010, 03:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ohiomike View Post
For counterfeiting to happen the intent MUST be fraudulent. There was no fraudulent intent here. Therefore the word does not apply to this situation. The law suit is not alleging counterfeiting, the law suit is alleging breach of contract. The lawyers for Konami have used the word in conjunction with their case, and may very well believe thats what happened, but the outcome of this case will not prove or disprove counterfeiting. And going by the legal definition of the word, it has no place in this case. This is simply not a matter of counterfeiting.
IF they printed cards that they knew were not authorized by Konami, how is that now fraudulent activity? Distributing them in any fashion, even through Upper Deck products, would be fraudulent if they know their agreement did not allow for their manufacturing in that way.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:07 PM   #61
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IF they printed cards that they knew were not authorized by Konami, how is that now fraudulent activity? Distributing them in any fashion, even through Upper Deck products, would be fraudulent if they know their agreement did not allow for their manufacturing in that way.
Had Upper Deck printed the cards themselves, the existence of the cards in question would not even be an issue. Upper Deck was the exclusive licensed manufacturer of yu-Gi-Oh cards at the time. The company that Upper Deck outsourced the work to and paid to print them, was not. No fraudulent intent. Perhaps some unethical intent if they had planned to distribute them through another company owned my McWilliams, but there is a huge difference between illegal and unethical. Upper Deck had the rights to make the cards. They simply didn't make the cards in question. They paid another company to. No intent to defraud there. It's just a breach of contract.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:10 PM   #62
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Put me down for $20 on the monster drowning your unicorn (sorry).


I think it might depend on if the unicorn has wings. A winged unicorn would probably influence the moneyline. I'd hold off wagering till all the facts of the contest are revealed.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:15 PM   #63
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Anyway, seems like you guys are just running in circles with your arguments. UD screwed the pooch with the likely breach of contract, but I see nothing that constitutes counterfeiting here. If I were to print off a set of these cards and sell them, that would be counterfeiting. What they did after having the outsourced printing done is where they run into the unethical/immoral/illegal gray area.
Agreed about running in circles. I think my points have been made and have already devoted way too much time to this thread, so I think I'm done contributing to it. Though, finding out the outcome of this unicorn battle may persuade me to check in again later. Go Unicorn!!! BTW... Unicorns would have DESTROYED the Broncos of Boise state... just putting that out there.
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:12 PM   #64
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wow, i am a loyal UD fan and collector but this is just absurd...im sure theres more details that we dont know but still, UD is going downhill
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:56 PM   #65
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terrible ............. just terrible . if they did this , you have to wonder what else have they done. i always wonder if the cards are actualy signed by the athletes themselves

take me back to the days when i would be happy with simply getting a bo jackson or a wade boggs
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:51 PM   #66
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Upper Deck Responds to Counterfeit Yu-Gi-Oh Card Suit
posted on 2009-01-27 09:58 EST
Distributor claims legal advantage, says counterfeit case is "absurd allegation"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The card distributor Upper Deck has posted a statement about the legal dispute between it and the game maker Konami over the Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game. Upper Deck asserts that Konami could not get a restraining order against Upper Deck in California and has an injunction to "honor their contractual commitments" with Upper Deck in Europe.

The statement alleges that Upper Deck's lawsuit in Nevada on December 10 (December 11 in Europe) was filed in response to Konami's "unfair and backstabbing tactics" "to undermine and ultimately take over the Yu-Gi-Oh! business from Upper Deck." The statement also describes Konami's December 11 naming of Upper Deck as one of the defendants in its counterfeit card case as an "absurd allegation with dubious timing" that "simply does not make sense." Upper Deck further claims that it has "spent millions of dollars fighting against Yu-Gi-Oh! counterfeits and even raided Chinese factories itself because Konami refused to do so or, in some cases, simply reacted too late."

While Upper Deck cannot fill orders for Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game Champion Packs on February 7, it plans to hold an "Upper Deck Day" that weekend with a special Yu-Gi-Oh! tournament at retailers. Konami is planning to launch its Crimson Crisis booster set through separate sneak peak events at participating retailers between February 28 and March 1.

Source: ICv2
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:00 PM   #67
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Upper Deck Responds to Counterfeit Yu-Gi-Oh Card Suit
posted on 2009-01-27 09:58 EST
Distributor claims legal advantage, says counterfeit case is "absurd allegation"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The card distributor Upper Deck has posted a statement about the legal dispute between it and the game maker Konami over the Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game. Upper Deck asserts that Konami could not get a restraining order against Upper Deck in California and has an injunction to "honor their contractual commitments" with Upper Deck in Europe.

The statement alleges that Upper Deck's lawsuit in Nevada on December 10 (December 11 in Europe) was filed in response to Konami's "unfair and backstabbing tactics" "to undermine and ultimately take over the Yu-Gi-Oh! business from Upper Deck." The statement also describes Konami's December 11 naming of Upper Deck as one of the defendants in its counterfeit card case as an "absurd allegation with dubious timing" that "simply does not make sense." Upper Deck further claims that it has "spent millions of dollars fighting against Yu-Gi-Oh! counterfeits and even raided Chinese factories itself because Konami refused to do so or, in some cases, simply reacted too late."

While Upper Deck cannot fill orders for Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game Champion Packs on February 7, it plans to hold an "Upper Deck Day" that weekend with a special Yu-Gi-Oh! tournament at retailers. Konami is planning to launch its Crimson Crisis booster set through separate sneak peak events at participating retailers between February 28 and March 1.

Source: ICv2
This was a year ago wasn't it?
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:09 PM   #68
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What a difference a year makes from "absurd alleagtion" to conceding to printing and distributing 611,000 cards that violated copyright and trademark as well as unfair competition laws.
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:19 PM   #69
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wikipedia

A counterfeit is an imitation, usually one that is made with the intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the established worth of the imitated product. The word counterfeit frequently describes both the forgeries of currency and documents, as well as the imitations of clothing, software, pharmaceuticals, watches, electronics, and company logos and brands. In the case of goods it results in patent infringement or trademark infringement.

Last edited by maximus; 01-08-2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason: definition
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:01 PM   #70
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As seen on Upperdeck.com (this is funny stuff)

Upper Deck Sports | Tips on Collecting - Values, Conditions & Card Grading



Are cards counterfeited? How do I know if the card is real?

An unfortunate aspect of the trading card industry is when some try to make a quick buck by cheating the system. This is especially true when it comes to printing of counterfeit cards that closely resemble the real cards. Where there is a will to make money, even if it is illegal, then there is a way.

Printing technology today has allowed some bad apples to produce fake cards that deplete the confidence of the entire industry. The fear of getting ripped off by a fake card and the growth of on-line card trading, have made the concept of card grading much more popular. (For more information on card grading, please see What is card grading?).

The Upper Deck Company was founded on the principle that cards will have a trademarked security hologram printed on the back to prevent counterfeiting. Other card companies have followed suit over the years and created different ways of guaranteeing that their cards are authentic, as it is extremely important to the authenticity of high value insert cards such as autographs and game used cards.

Still, there are fake cards still being produced and distributed out there today, so before you make a big purchase, have an industry expert like your trusted local hobby store owner or a paid grading service analyze the card for you. The extra time and money you put into it may save you in the long run.
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:43 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by maximus View Post
As seen on Upperdeck.com (this is funny stuff)

Upper Deck Sports | Tips on Collecting - Values, Conditions & Card Grading



Are cards counterfeited? How do I know if the card is real?

An unfortunate aspect of the trading card industry is when some try to make a quick buck by cheating the system. This is especially true when it comes to printing of counterfeit cards that closely resemble the real cards. Where there is a will to make money, even if it is illegal, then there is a way.

Printing technology today has allowed some bad apples to produce fake cards that deplete the confidence of the entire industry. The fear of getting ripped off by a fake card and the growth of on-line card trading, have made the concept of card grading much more popular. (For more information on card grading, please see What is card grading?).

The Upper Deck Company was founded on the principle that cards will have a trademarked security hologram printed on the back to prevent counterfeiting. Other card companies have followed suit over the years and created different ways of guaranteeing that their cards are authentic, as it is extremely important to the authenticity of high value insert cards such as autographs and game used cards.

Still, there are fake cards still being produced and distributed out there today, so before you make a big purchase, have an industry expert like your trusted local hobby store owner or a paid grading service analyze the card for you. The extra time and money you put into it may save you in the long run.
terrible , just terrible
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:06 AM   #72
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Still, there are fake cards still being produced and distributed out there today, so before you make a big purchase, have an industry expert like your trusted local hobby store owner or a paid grading service analyze the card for you. The extra time and money you put into it may save you in the long run.
So here's some good advice...get your cards graded by a reputable source and make that source date the grading of the card. That way your card will be one of the first, (hopefully) to be graded and therefore hopefully authentic.

I know this won't work in all cases, but it will work in some.
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:32 PM   #73
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What is so disturbing about this is that it appears UD did not produce these cards as part of their manufacturing licensing deal. They produced these cards with out any permission from Kanomi. They had these cards produced in China and then supplied them in to the secondary market as a distributor not a manufacturer. It seems as though they produced many thousands of "rare" cards after the fact and then dumped them in to the secondary market independent of their manufacturing operation. It appears they did this so that they could make significant dollars completely independent of their manufacturing business. It is actually shocking that they would do this.s

They diluted the value of the cards that they manufactured and sold in YugiOH pack by having counterfeits in China and supplying them in to the secondary market independent of their manufacturing operation.

It is probably among the most terrible things that has ever been done in the industry. Very unfortunate that collectors (especially kids) spent a lot of money on cards they thought were valuable only to have UD have unauthorized cards printed in China and then through a completely separate channel distributed to UD.

I am not certain I understand all these facts to be accurate but if they are, I hope UD is punished severely. There is no place in the hobby for this. This appears to be greed and corruption at its worst.
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:08 PM   #74
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From my research on it, here is my breakdown of what happened in this lawsuit. It is posted on my blog but instead of spamming my link I'll copy and paste it.


"After going off this afternoon, I’ve finally gotten back and have had a change to do some reading to try and digest the full ramifications and details of this lawsuit filed by Konami against Upper Deck over Yu Gi Oh (what a annoying name to type out) counterfeit cards. Lets look at this situation chronologically to see how it unfolded.

October 8th 2008, Konami files a lawsuit against Vintage Sports Cards, accusing them of distributing Yu Gi Oh repackaged products containing counterfeit cards. Think of it as a mixed pack blaster box you can find at Target, Walmart, Toys R Us, etc. containing packs of Yu Gi Oh cards. There is nothing wrong with redistributing packs, but these packs from Vintage Sports Cards were repackaged along fake “rare” cards, which hurt the Yu Gi Oh secondary market. These cards feature holograms and characteristics (paper type, varnish) that are not the same as official Konami Yu Gi Oh cards. The advertised cards that can be seen below as “ultra rare cards” that came along with these 3 booster pack blasters are the counterfeit cards this lawsuit is over. The blaster packs themselves are perfectly fine redistributable packs from Upper Deck

Vintage Sports Cards defended themselves by saying they obtained all of their repackage materials legally (including the counterfeit cards) from Upper Deck, who at the time was the licensed Yu Gi Oh distributor for North America. After that Konami added Upper Deck as a counter defendant to the original lawsuit. Eventually Vintage Sports Cards and Konami reached a settlement, but the lawsuit against the counter defendants (Upper Deck) is still going on.

Originally Upper Deck strongly denied these allegations over the past year, but recent depositions and interviews have found contrary, which has lead to Upper Deck admitting to counterfeiting 611,000 Yu Gi Oh cards for Vintage Sports Cards, and the courts ruling in favor of Konami. However, there is still a January 26th hearing that will determine whether this was a detriment to Konami, and if so, how much Upper Deck will have to pay out."
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:21 PM   #75
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I am not fully aware of the complete relationship between Kanomi and Upper Deck but it is my understanding that Upper Deck was never authorized to manufacture Yu Gi Oh cads. UD was only licensed to distribute YGO cards. Kanomi was responsible for the printing of the cards and then UD had rights to distribute them. I do not think UD had rights to print any YGO cards.

The fact that UD went to China to have Yu Gi OH cards printed and then they sold them through re-packaging seems to be complete counterfeiting that was very damaging to the entire integrity of the industry.
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