2017 MVP ... Brady or Wentz

[jasonm2121]

Brady should get it, he will not, and Wentz is certainly deserving so I do not think anyone will be upset either side. And to the point earlier, it almost seems like a curse for the post season.

[Brian48]

Originally Posted by jasonm2121

Brady should get it, he will not, and Wentz is certainly deserving so I do not think anyone will be upset either side. And to the point earlier, it almost seems like a curse for the post season.

This.

[Devi8or]

I could see either getting it at this point, They've both got the numbers and I wouldn't be mad either way.

I have a feeling that Wentz would be the front runner because it's something new that everyone is talking about. Everyone knows Brady is REALLY good, so I don't think he's getting as much MVP noise as Carson at the moment

Lots of football left to go, I'll take a nice SB win over the MVP for Carson though

[blackbears86]

I would rather Brady get the Superbowl MVP

[LCM1223]

Don't care who gets it. Just care who is wearing the rings on Feb 5

[Stifle]

Pro-football-reference - Brady leads in 8 categories, Wentz leads in 1.
Wentz has turned the ball over 7 times - 5 INT's & 2 FL
Brady has turned the ball over 6 times - 3 INT's & 3 FL
It's a close race with both players deserving the right to win.

[RedSoxFan28]

Originally Posted by Stifle

Pro-football-reference - Brady leads in 8 categories, Wentz leads in 1.
Wentz has turned the ball over 7 times - 5 INT's & 2 FL
Brady has turned the ball over 6 times - 3 INT's & 3 FL
It's a close race with both players deserving the right to win.

Brady really only has 2 fumbles lost

[BostonNut]

Antonio Brown is in the conversation.

[Onepocketj]

If Brady continues the way he's going, he seems like a lock now.

[MFaulkCollector]

wentz adds significantly more value to the eagles then brady adds to the patriots........ the patriots are 14-6 without brady in his career which is about a 70 win percentage. brady has a winning percentage of 78 percent. its crystal clear that new england can win games without tom brady. the organization is just ridiculous in that aspect. whoever, whatever, they will win games. i personally think brady makes the difference in the playoffs and his excellence is needed to beat top level teams... and he does that year in and year out

HOWEVER.... with that being said, i think tom brady is clearly the better player. he should win offensive player of the year and if the eagles fall apart i think he will deserve mvp as well

[BostonNut]

And the majority of those wins came with the greatest offense the NFL had ever seen.

I never tire of going around this circle...

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

wentz adds significantly more value to the eagles then brady adds to the patriots........ the patriots are 14-6 without brady in his career which is about a 70 win percentage. brady has a winning percentage of 78 percent. its crystal clear that new england can win games without tom brady. the organization is just ridiculous in that aspect. whoever, whatever, they will win games. i personally think brady makes the difference in the playoffs and his excellence is needed to beat top level teams... and he does that year in and year out

HOWEVER.... with that being said, i think tom brady is clearly the better player. he should win offensive player of the year and if the eagles fall apart i think he will deserve mvp as well

[kyle1707]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

If Brady continues the way he's going, he seems like a lock now.

Ya if they win 3 of 4 games including pitts... get best record etc

Not sure how he could lose....

Awful about wentz... What a crazy year for qb's

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

And the majority of those wins came with the greatest offense the NFL had ever seen.

I never tire of going around this circle...

It really is something isn't it? It's too bad the wizard BB couldn't whip up some of that black magic in the pre - Brady era. Winning must not have taken off until he started bugging locker rooms flattening footballs and jamming headsets.

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

It really is something isn't it? It's too bad the wizard BB couldn't whip up some of that black magic in the pre - Brady era. Winning must not have taken off until he started bugging locker rooms flattening footballs and jamming headsets.

Don't forget the weather machine!

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

And the majority of those wins came with the greatest offense the NFL had ever seen.

I never tire of going around this circle...

in a 20 game sample, the patriots are 14-6..... that is fact

brady is a better qb then wentz... that is fact too

but the patriots can win regular season games without brady...... it doesn't make him any less of a great talent..... it just means his "value" is probably not that of other guys as far as "win shares" or whatever you want to call it

if you consider the award best offensive player..... hellyea give it to brady, he is certainly that this season...... but with the way new england is constructed i personally don't think he adds all that many regular season wins to this team. another middle of the road or backup surely wouldn't win a super bowl where brady probably will.... but for the regular season other qbs add more value to their teams over an adequate replacement

[BostonNut]

Are you proposing the Pats throw out Hoyer against Pittsburgh with the #1 seed potentially up for grabs next week?

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

in a 20 game sample, the patriots are 14-6..... that is fact

brady is a better qb then wentz... that is fact too

but the patriots can win regular season games without brady...... it doesn't make him any less of a great talent..... it just means his "value" is probably not that of other guys as far as "win shares" or whatever you want to call it

if you consider the award best offensive player..... hellyea give it to brady, he is certainly that this season...... but with the way new england is constructed i personally don't think he adds all that many regular season wins to this team. another middle of the road or backup surely wouldn't win a super bowl where brady probably will.... but for the regular season other qbs add more value to their teams over an adequate replacement

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

Are you proposing the Pats throw out Hoyer against Pittsburgh with the #1 seed potentially up for grabs next week?

if you read my first post i said brady is necessary to beat better teams... i mean he is the best player in the nfl..... but i dont think he is/was needed to beat middle of the road/lower tier teams

so..... no an average replacement probably wouldn't beat a 11-2 team.... but when i look at their game results i feel like brady is worth 2-3 wins over an average replacement

i just happen to think a few other guys may be worth more..... but we shall see how the last 4 games go. that is still a lot of football left

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

if you read my first post i said brady is necessary to beat better teams... i mean he is the best player in the nfl..... but i dont think he is/was needed to beat middle of the road/lower tier teams

so..... no an average replacement probably wouldn't beat a 11-2 team.... but when i look at their game results i feel like brady is worth 2-3 wins over an average replacement

i just happen to think a few other guys may be worth more..... but we shall see how the last 4 games go. that is still a lot of football left

So if he is needed/good enough to beat the best teams in the league he is not good enough to be the most valuable player in the league?

I am completely lost....

[jasonm2121]

Didn't Cassel go 10-5 and make the pro bowl with KC? Jimmy G looks decent too, maybe NE just has decent back ups and coaches. Weird.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

So if he is needed/good enough to beat the best teams in the league he is not good enough to be the most valuable player in the league?

I am completely lost....

the packers go to overtime against the browns? they play like total crap when rodgers doesn't play

an average replacement would net green bay a 4-12 season and that could be genrous, they would lose to bad teams and middle of the road teams

i think an average replacement would cost some teams this year more games over their starter.... more than a replacement would for brady

the patriots would not go to overtime against the browns with any qb.... they wouldn't lose to poor teams with anyone... that is what im saying. brady solidifies a great surrounding cast and puts them over the top agasint the league's best teams

i don't really see what is that hard to understand... rodgers could be worth 6-8 wins if you look at that team this year and past year's when he missed games. the patriots don't need the best qb of all time to beat middle and lower tier teams..... an average replacement could win those games in new england.

hopefully that makes sense

[BostonNut]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

the packers go to overtime against the browns? they play like total crap when rodgers doesn't play

an average replacement would net green bay a 4-12 season and that could be genrous, they would lose to bad teams and middle of the road teams

i think an average replacement would cost some teams this year more games over their starter.... more than a replacement would for brady

the patriots would not go to overtime against the browns with any qb.... they wouldn't lose to poor teams with anyone... that is what im saying. brady solidifies a great surrounding cast and puts them over the top agasint the league's best teams

i don't really see what is that hard to understand... rodgers could be worth 6-8 wins if you look at that team this year and past year's when he missed games. the patriots don't need the best qb of all time to beat middle and lower tier teams..... an average replacement could win those games in new england.

hopefully that makes sense

The Patriots lost (got blown out...Peyton Hillis anyone?) to the Browns and had a miracle comeback against them....with Brady at the helm both times...

The Patriots lost...got shutout at home...to Buffalo with Brisset at the helm.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

The Patriots lost (got blown out...Peyton Hillis anyone?) to the Browns and had a miracle comeback against them....with Brady at the helm both times...

The Patriots lost...got shutout at home...to Buffalo with Brisset at the helm.

you are entitled to your opinion... there is a reason brady has 2 mvps and manning has 5.... people just don't generally think brady is as "valuable" as other great qb's because of his surroundings

it is what it is..... value and being the best player are not the same, that is my point.

[Cyphon25]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

the packers go to overtime against the browns? they play like total crap when rodgers doesn't play

an average replacement would net green bay a 4-12 season and that could be genrous, they would lose to bad teams and middle of the road teams

i think an average replacement would cost some teams this year more games over their starter.... more than a replacement would for brady

the patriots would not go to overtime against the browns with any qb.... they wouldn't lose to poor teams with anyone... that is what im saying. brady solidifies a great surrounding cast and puts them over the top agasint the league's best teams

i don't really see what is that hard to understand... rodgers could be worth 6-8 wins if you look at that team this year and past year's when he missed games. the patriots don't need the best qb of all time to beat middle and lower tier teams..... an average replacement could win those games in new england.

hopefully that makes sense

If it makes you feel any better I completely get what you are saying and you are absolutely correct.

People often times mistake the words value and skill which are 2 different things.

The issue I have with the MVP award is that a players true value is best seen when they don't play as opposed to when they do. So a guy like Rodgers is probably more deserving than anyone but he isn't even being talked about because of the injury.

And now we may see with Wentz out that despite how good he is/is becoming that is isn't actually deserving of MVP because Foles might be able to continue where he left off. Again, not to confuse value with skill. Wentz is the better QB but his value is lessened by having another QB who can potentially get you the same results.

On the flipside in Greenbay, they lose to the worst team in football today because Rodgers isn't playing. I would bet $1000 that the Eagles still beat the Browns with Foles at the helm. That is the difference between value and skill.

[Cyphon25]

I'll give you another way to look at it as well. Lets take the Steelers situation with the Le'veon Bell contract. Bell wants 15 million a year and for the Steelers specifically he just flatout isn't worth that much. I think at his skill level he can demand that kind of money, but his value isn't that high for the Steelers.

He is a great RB and arguably the best in the league but when you look at the Steelers construction he isn't a piece that they HAVE to have to be a contender. Franchise QB, best WR in football, a top 5 OL, etc etc....we saw Deangelo Williams at 32/33 years old come in and get it done big time for them just a year or 2 ago.

So he isn't worth 15 million to them, but look at a team like the Browns and his value increases dramatically because imagine combining him with Gordon and giving a young QB like Kizer a piece like that to help carry him until he becomes a better QB.

Anyway, this is another way to look at how a players value can change depending on scenario while their skill level remains the same. Bell is a great RB no matter where you put him but his value changes depending upon roster construction.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by Cyphon25

If it makes you feel any better I completely get what you are saying and you are absolutely correct.

People often times mistake the words value and skill which are 2 different things.

The issue I have with the MVP award is that a players true value is best seen when they don't play as opposed to when they do. So a guy like Rodgers is probably more deserving than anyone but he isn't even being talked about because of the injury.

And now we may see with Wentz out that despite how good he is/is becoming that is isn't actually deserving of MVP because Foles might be able to continue where he left off. Again, not to confuse value with skill. Wentz is the better QB but his value is lessened by having another QB who can potentially get you the same results.

On the flipside in Greenbay, they lose to the worst team in football today because Rodgers isn't playing. I would bet $1000 that the Eagles still beat the Browns with Foles at the helm. That is the difference between value and skill.

it's just so hard to quantify...... usually in all facets of logic when someone is surrounded by pro bowlers and all pros they are feasting off a great team (like wilson did for those first few years in seattle)... but new england doesn't have your usual "talent" for personal accolades. gronk is a great of the game... but there are so many moving pieces and coaching plays such a big role in how that team wins. they don't light up pro bowls like you would think and they have very few all pro players

so because of that... brady wins games with no talent says all the pats crowd..... it's hard to argue against that because in the traditional sense it doesn't look like his teams are loaded.

but when you look at the coaching and player roster... then what they actually do......... players achieve more there than anywhere. it truly is a situation where the pieces are only a fraction of the whole when you add it up. i know the 08 team had some strong offensive pieces, but between that year and the 4 game suspension the patriots went 14-6 without brady... 70 percent... with brady for a career they are 78 percent......... for me this whole thing adds up to the coaching and front office being the best in team sports; ever. this combo is something that will never be seen again in my opinion. when you take the best coached team, the smartest front office, let them sign 53 of their "high quality" individuals..... you are going to win a lot of games... oh yea, let's also sprinkle on one of the top qbs in history. a qb of that level isn't needed to win a lot of games..... but it is needed to win super bowls and 13-14 games in the regular season

i agree with you on rodgers...... he is the offense..... and as bad as they were the last few years i think its been 9 playoff appearances in a row; and the bulk of that on rodgers.... their putrid record of 5-11-1 or whatever it is without him shows that.... in fact, it is easier to see his value as you can match records with him in the same season as the injury. 4-1 with him this year, 3-5 without him. brady misses 4 games last year.. 3-1 without him, 10-2 with him.

but again saying brady is the best offensive player and qb this year isn't good enough.... everything must be because of brady, it must be, it can't be anything else... haha