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View Poll Results: Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?
GOAT 147 25.83%
#2 210 36.91%
#3 70 12.30%
#4 36 6.33%
#5 30 5.27%
Oustide Top 5 76 13.36%
Voters: 569. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-28-2018, 03:18 AM   #776
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Originally Posted by drobfan8 View Post
I was impressed with how Baynes guarded LeBron at times. Forced him in to some average looking jumpshots. You'd think he'd blow by him. So I would guess Jordan would take on the challenge.
Lebron has a bad handle and cant blow by people for that reason. Not hating just saying thats his largest weakness. Never had a good handle and the celtics in this series exposed that more. Made morris take him full court and almost each time lebron would pass right away. Lebron cant get past guys unless he has a lane to explode by.
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Old 05-28-2018, 03:26 AM   #777
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There is no problem to measuring against the standard of Jordan (or Wilt, or Magic, or Jabbar, or the other guys you mentioned).

The problem I have is that while objectively LeBron's resume and accomplishments stand up with any of those, there is a significant portion of people in Jordan camp that are blind to it.

This is a cliff notes version of the conversation I had with a Jordan guy, a friend of mine.

Him- Jordan went 6-0
Me- Ok, that means he lost more in earlier rounds than LeBron. You telling me it's better to lose in earlier rounds than the finals
Him- well, his team sucked early on
Me- did you look at the roster LeBron had when Cleveland first went to the finals vs. SA?
Him- well Jordan never quit on his team mates
Me- so those 3 years when he left hoops all together to play baseball amid what many feel was a gambling probe does not count
Him- well if you put him on the playground, there is no way LeBron can cover Jordan
Me- you are right, Jordan is going to run circles around him. But are you telling me that say Jabbar or Russell is not going to just post Jordan up every time or LeBron is going to outmuscle Jordan? Jordan would not be the physical match for either
Him- well, Russell was just a tall skinny guy. If Jordan had todays training methods, diet, etc. he would be more physically able to compete with those guys

Me- so if Jordan could have access to todays methods, that means Russell would too, right? He's not going to be 215 lbs, he would be 265. Remember back then lifting weights was considered bad for hoops players.

Him- Well, Jordan never had to jump teams to win
Me- you are right, because he had one of the other top 50 guys playing with him a majority of his career, and another HOFer in Rodman for a decent part. They also had a guy in Kukoc that was perennial in running for 6th man of the year, and he played most of his career with a guy who is thought by many to be the best coach of all time and in the top 2-3 in literally everyone's book. Exactly which coach has LeBron played for that would be mistaken for a great one?

Him- I gotta go.....


That's a typical discussion with Jordan guys who won't budge. Literally you can use their logic to point out things, and they still want nothing to hear of it.

Jordan was great. Elite. Deserves every bit of recognition he has received. But to think he's this GOAT all in a pasture by himself, well, that I just don't see. There are a handful of others whose resumes, eye test, and accomplishments mean they deserve to be in that pasture too. The idea that Jordan was the untouchable undisputed best ever I just don't see.
argument is well Jordan lost early by himself to the bad boy pistons who were champs 54/28 and the 67-15 Celtics, 59/23 Celtics, 63/19 pistons. And lebron managed to run through the east with help from wade, bosh, Allen, kyrie, Tristan Thompson, Kyle Korver, Rashard Lewis, mike miller, Shane battier, Kevin love, Kendrick Perkins, Shaq. So Jordan lost by himself to 3 or 4 of the top 50 players ever early on and then won 6, and lebron Made it there 8 times over his career with a group of guys that probably have 60-75 all star appearances between them and Beat super teams like

Pistons- chauncey Billups, Rasheed, Hamilton
Paul George pacers twice
This years pacers I don’t know who their star was, oladipo I guess
Wizards- Caron Butler and Gilbert arenas
Magic- jameer Nelson, Dwight Howard
Bulls- d- rose 1 year, Nate Robinson 2nd time
Raptors- lowry and derozen
Philadelphia- Jrue holiday
Boston- pierce, Garnett, Allen
New York- Carmelo
Bucks- Monta Ellis
Bobcats- al Jefferson
Nets- Joe Johnson
This year celtics- terry rozier

Yeah it sure has been a tough road for the king that’s only 2011-2014 and this year
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Old 05-28-2018, 03:52 AM   #778
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Lebron has a bad handle and cant blow by people for that reason. Not hating just saying thats his largest weakness. Never had a good handle and the celtics in this series exposed that more. Made morris take him full court and almost each time lebron would pass right away. Lebron cant get past guys unless he has a lane to explode by.
That's a good call.

First stint at the Cavs LeBron was the guy I loved watching. He was just crazy good. Explosive.
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Old 05-28-2018, 04:01 AM   #779
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NBA Finals 2018. Tears will flow. Legacies will tarnish. Rosters will be blown up.

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Old 05-28-2018, 04:15 AM   #780
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How could anybody hate Lebron after watching the game 7 of the eastern conference finals? We are so lucky to watch him play.
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Old 05-28-2018, 04:39 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by Noah View Post
argument is well Jordan lost early by himself to the bad boy pistons who were champs 54/28 and the 67-15 Celtics, 59/23 Celtics, 63/19 pistons. And lebron managed to run through the east with help from wade, bosh, Allen, kyrie, Tristan Thompson, Kyle Korver, Rashard Lewis, mike miller, Shane battier, Kevin love, Kendrick Perkins, Shaq. So Jordan lost by himself to 3 or 4 of the top 50 players ever early on and then won 6, and lebron Made it there 8 times over his career with a group of guys that probably have 60-75 all star appearances between them and Beat super teams like

Pistons- chauncey Billups, Rasheed, Hamilton
Paul George pacers twice
This years pacers I don’t know who their star was, oladipo I guess
Wizards- Caron Butler and Gilbert arenas
Magic- jameer Nelson, Dwight Howard
Bulls- d- rose 1 year, Nate Robinson 2nd time
Raptors- lowry and derozen
Philadelphia- Jrue holiday
Boston- pierce, Garnett, Allen
New York- Carmelo
Bucks- Monta Ellis
Bobcats- al Jefferson
Nets- Joe Johnson
This year celtics- terry rozier

Yeah it sure has been a tough road for the king that’s only 2011-2014 and this year
Ok. Well, let this be said for everybody that has played for the last 5 years until this very day, because the coaches and players of this time are not as good as what I've seen before. I've been watching the game for 30 years, although not as much the last 5. Blame a lot of it on the one and dones.

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Old 05-28-2018, 04:47 AM   #782
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That's a good call.

First stint at the Cavs LeBron was the guy I loved watching. He was just crazy good. Explosive.
Yeah not many people bring it up because most basketball fans just think everyone in the NBA can dribble but there is a gap in dribbling. Look at someone like KD who has a pretty nice handle thats the only reason he gets by people. I always thought lebron would work on his handle more. To his credit it did get better recently (probably because of Kyrie) but he could really use a nice handle when he starts to decline.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:08 AM   #783
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How could anybody hate Lebron after watching the game 7 of the eastern conference finals? We are so lucky to watch him play.
Too many peoples' self-worth on the line.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:15 AM   #784
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How could anybody hate Lebron after watching the game 7 of the eastern conference finals? We are so lucky to watch him play.
True, love him or hate him, we should appreciate what we are seeing.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:23 AM   #785
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Longshot... if I was you’re friend I would’ve reminded you that Jordan didn’t quit for 3 years to go play baseball, it was 1.5 years but I guess that rounds to 3.

Facts aren’t important.

Pretty impressive that Jordan retired twice and still accomplished more in less time than Lebron has. Sure, Jordan has less second place finishes so we can knock him for losing to Bird’s Celtics if you want when he was young.

But the point to the 6-0 being better than 3-6 is that the 6>3

Lebron has to put the wins up to make the losses more palatable.


He is 16-19 in the Finals right now if you wipe off 2007 when he carried a bad team and 2015 when his team was hurt.

Think about that. When he had 2 stud teammates and plenty of help on championship rosters, he hasn’t been able to manage a .500 record against the good teams of the West.

That’s not good.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:44 AM   #786
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Longshot... if I was you’re friend I would’ve reminded you that Jordan didn’t quit for 3 years to go play baseball, it was 1.5 years but I guess that rounds to 3.

Facts aren’t important.

.
I love the world today where this type of conclusion formed so quickly. In all my posts all I have mentioned a ton of facts, that happened to be a typo. Meant to type 2


Ironically, before rushing to judgement about someone not using facts, having the facts would be a good idea.


I continue to be amazed by how simple conversations on sports turn personal and insulting. I'll waive the white flag now. As much as I like a good debate, it's not worth it.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:49 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by Longshot18 View Post
I love the world today where this type of conclusion formed so quickly. In all my posts all I have mentioned a ton of facts, that happened to be a typo. Meant to type 2


Ironically, before rushing to judgement about someone not using facts, having the facts would be a good idea.


I continue to be amazed by how simple conversations on sports turn personal and insulting. I'll waive the white flag now. As much as I like a good debate, it's not worth it.
You’re making fun of your friend for being a dummy. The least you can do is get your own stuff right? No?
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:51 AM   #788
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I do agree with you about a lot and how you want to include a group across different era as goats. But it sounds like to me you spend more time trying to bring Jordan down than anything else.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:40 AM   #789
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This is one of those debates that there is literally nothing that is going to change minds.

LeBron could win 8 titles from age 40-50 and the Jordanites would still claim Michael is #1. Meanwhile Jordan can't add to his resume so the LeBronites will consider everything else he does from here on out as proof he's better.

And both LeBronites and Jordanites typically have no clue hoops existed before the mid 1980s and dismiss the likes of Chamberlain/Jabbar immediately.

I never saw Wilt, but I have seen the rest. And if you ask me, I honestly could not name a GOAT. There would be GOATS. There would not be a pedestal, there would be a Mt. Rushmore.

An objective person could make a case for/against Chamberlain, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, LeBron, MJ, and maybe a few others. But these arguments and posts always come down to strongly worded personal opinions and/or stats that tell only the side of the story one side wants in efforts to prove their point.
This is not true. If Lebron wins 6, he passes Magic and Russell on my list. If he wins 7, he passes Jordan. If he sets 83 NBA records, he passes Wilt. If he continues to beat bad teams in 7 games to make the NBA Finals and loses to the WCC, he will never be higher than 5th.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:10 AM   #790
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This is not true. If Lebron wins 6, he passes Magic and Russell on my list. If he wins 7, he passes Jordan. If he sets 83 NBA records, he passes Wilt. If he continues to beat bad teams in 7 games to make the NBA Finals and loses to the WCC, he will never be higher than 5th.
One of the flaws I see is, Lebron WiNS.....well he had a super team of stars, so the championships are “tainted”.

Yet when Lebron takes another group of misfits and such and LOSES to a stacked Golden State super group of allstar “friends”......let’s keep focusing on how many Finals he’s lost. (But he did win against this super team......on the road. But folks give Kyrie the credit for the shot. Just like they ignore Lebron stats in Miami and give Ray Allen the credit).

I do hope Houston makes it out of the West.....

Folks that dislike Lebron will use any angle to push their anger. Lebron is a very special talent. I’m happy to witness his career in its entirety.

And Jordan is GOAT......but I appreciate both.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:29 AM   #791
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lebron wears 23 cus he recognizes who the goat is.

gg.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:43 AM   #792
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Jordan #1
Kobe #2
Lebron #3

Why are we even discussing this? Because Lebron barely got by Victor Oladipo and won as an underdog to a rookie Jayson Tatum-led team that shot 7/39 from 3 pt land? C’mon now, these East teams are trash. Eastern Conf Champion means absolutely nothing these days
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:56 AM   #793
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One of the flaws I see is, Lebron WiNS.....well he had a super team of stars, so the championships are “tainted”.

Yet when Lebron takes another group of misfits and such and LOSES to a stacked Golden State super group of allstar “friends”......let’s keep focusing on how many Finals he’s lost. (But he did win against this super team......on the road. But folks give Kyrie the credit for the shot. Just like they ignore Lebron stats in Miami and give Ray Allen the credit).

I do hope Houston makes it out of the West.....

Folks that dislike Lebron will use any angle to push their anger. Lebron is a very special talent. I’m happy to witness his career in its entirety.

And Jordan is GOAT......but I appreciate both.
Nice strawman. Who is not giving LeBron credit for winning 3 titles? Otherwise, this thread would be titled who is better Elgin Baylor or LeBron James and a good agruement can be made that Baylor was better. However, 3>0 just like 6>3.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:58 AM   #794
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1. MJ
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kobe
6. Lebron
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:00 AM   #795
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still top 10
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:02 AM   #796
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Jordan #1
Kobe #2
Lebron #3

Why are we even discussing this? Because Lebron barely got by Victor Oladipo and won as an underdog to a rookie Jayson Tatum-led team that shot 7/39 from 3 pt land? C’mon now, these East teams are trash. Eastern Conf Champion means absolutely nothing these days
The fact that you just ranked Kobe higher than Lebron AND put him #2 all time means you have lost any shred of credibility you may have had. This is a SaS level hot take.

Basketball existed before 1990, you know.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:04 AM   #797
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1. MJ
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kobe
6. Lebron
So disrespectful to Lew,
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:12 AM   #798
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Nice strawman. Who is not giving LeBron credit for winning 3 titles? Otherwise, this thread would be titled who is better Elgin Baylor or LeBron James and a good agruement can be made that Baylor was better. However, 3>0 just like 6>3.
And by that logic 11>6
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:15 AM   #799
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Nice strawman. Who is not giving LeBron credit for winning 3 titles? Otherwise, this thread would be titled who is better Elgin Baylor or LeBron James and a good agruement can be made that Baylor was better. However, 3>0 just like 6>3.

Rats60 wrote:
“And when the championship was on the line, LeBron missed 4 shots in a row. It was a good thing that Kyrie bailed him out and won game 7 with his clutch shot.”


You are a known Lebron hater, and refuse to credit ANY player in today’s league. There are countless negative posts from you about Lebron. You are stuck in the 60s and 70s. We get it. The pgisback and ncfancam guys of the world will be JUST LIKE YOU when talking about Lebron 30 years from now.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:30 AM   #800
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Not going to get into the GOAT argument because both sides of it will never agree. Even if LeBron was to somehow in 3 more titles. BUT... I find it hilarious that people try to compare KD to LeBron. It's not even close.
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