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Old 11-21-2013, 05:24 PM   #126
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That the victim did not want to pursue charges.
That the victim was not cooperative in the investigation.
That the case was in hiatus for 11 months.

You can try to argue that the police "covered" it up, yes, but regardless this is something that has not happened in college football ever before and could be extraordinary circumstances.

Two situations:

Penn State doesn't come forward to media about rape accusations even though it was happening <- the university and coaches were at fault and the bad guy

Victim of Jameis Winston doesn't come forward about rape until it came to media attention <- the police, fsu, and winston are at fault and the bad guys

Now what if Jameis Winston and the rest of FSU is out raping other women and the police and FSU are covering it up? If you ask me its entirely the victims fault if that happens. She had the power to come forward immediately when the police told her that. All of her friends and family knew, they could have come forward right away. Mike McQuery and many others at Penn State was heavily criticized and faced accusations of failing to act, because they didn't immediately go to another source or media. Only one person ever even witnessed Sandusky do it, besides that it was all rumors. The victim had every opportunity to take this forward and chose not to. She didn't "move out of the area". She attended school up through last week. Her family lives right near Tallahassee and her aunts the lawyer. They could have pressed as much as they wanted, but waited a year and went to TMZ? Ummm no... With these circumstances, Winston deserves the benefit of the doubt. If stuff like this is acceptable, any person can sleep with a player and say they couldn't identify them, and then go on to later extort the player.
Again - a whole lot of writing that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If he's charged there are not extraordinary circumstances that would allow him to be involved in athletics compared to some dude on the Men's swimming team.

It's FSU policy.

If you don't think he'll get charged then that's a different discussion - but your original post said you won't bench a player based on a rape accusation - when FSU policy will dictate whether he is suspended.

Innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant when it comes to FSU Athletics. Charged with a crime is all that matters.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:31 PM   #127
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Innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant when it comes to FSU Athletics. Charged with a crime is all that matters UNLESS THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES.
Fixed it for you.

I gave you the circumstances. Three of them. Going to a National Championship is NOT a circumstance. When someone goes to TMZ about a rape report that is a year old, said they didn't want to pursue charges, it is a circumstance. She changed her mind after a year, good for her. Stuff like that never happens in real life. A case being brought up a year after where a person "changes their mind". Slippery slope for extortion of players, whether they be swimmers, soccer players, or football players.

I understand what you mean and I'm not sticking up for Winston. He should go to jail immediately if its true. The victims delta zeta sorority has all come forward to say about what was happening and said she is not telling the truth. The SA froze in his tracks and said no comment, when questions were asked about the presence of other suspected players "DNA" that was found. Rumor is that it was Kenny Shaw, but don't know who it really is.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:37 PM   #128
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Fixed it for you.

I gave you the circumstances. Three of them. Going to a National Championship is NOT a circumstance. When someone goes to TMZ about a rape report that is a year old, said they didn't want to pursue charges, it is a circumstance. She changed her mind after a year, good for her. Stuff like that never happens in real life. A case being brought up a year after where a person "changes their mind". Slippery slope for extortion of players, whether they be swimmers, soccer players, or football players.
What you gave me are not extraordinary circumstances. You gave circumstances, many of which are directly related to probable cause, that are facts for a jury or judge to sort out.

If this exact case was happening to a Men's swimmer they'd be off the team as soon as charged per FSU policy.

If you actually think FSU would allow a player, in some minor sport, to keep playing because this exact situation is "extraordinary circumstances" then you are out of your mind.

Take the name Jameis Winston away and put in John Doe playing Soccer and he's suspended as soon as charged.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:37 PM   #129
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Again - a whole lot of writing that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If he's charged there are not extraordinary circumstances that would allow him to be involved in athletics compared to some dude on the Men's swimming team.

It's FSU policy.

If you don't think he'll get charged then that's a different discussion - but your original post said you won't bench a player based on a rape accusation - when FSU policy will dictate whether he is suspended.

Innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant when it comes to FSU Athletics. Charged with a crime is all that matters.
Jameis Winston may not be suspended automatically from FSU's football team if he is charged with in the assault case - Orlando Sentinel

Actually, I think you are quite wrong and...unless you are an actual member of the FSU committee, don't know whether there will be anything in this case that constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances.' That seems like a very potentially large 'gray area' that will be open to a lot of interpretation by said committee. If the case had proceeded forward and he was charged immediately with the crime, then I'd be more inclined to think the university would be more proactive in enforcing a 'black and white' approach to this case, but now...not so much.

And regardless of how anyone views it, we all know the football program basically drives a good majority of the university's revenue and overall national exposure.

This is far from a 'clear cut' situation.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:43 PM   #130
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This stuff is crazy, now here's a draft question and i'm not comfortable asking this, how far does he drop in the 2015 draft?
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:44 PM   #131
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Cookies and ASU you both nailed it and I agree. If it were a different sport and circumstances i.e. not playing for a Championship, the player would be immediately kicked off the team. I am sure of that. Its unfortunate that the TRUE circumstances are the championship, but thats sports life, and how it would be if this were basketball. What I am saying is that they can use the 11 month thing as circumstances to keep it in the grey area and let him play.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:47 PM   #132
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This stuff is crazy, now here's a draft question and i'm not comfortable asking this, how far does he drop in the 2015 draft?
If he's convicted he's looking at 5-10 years. You mean the 2023 draft? If he's not convicted, you can bet he'll still by a top 3 pick. The NFL doesn't care that much, players hook up with women all the time. You're bound to have one that gets dramatic. I am inclined to not believe most player rape cases by players, for the very fact that most can take any woman home any night they want. Well besides lineman. Again not defending players and saying they DON'T rape players, but most instances the story changes.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:47 PM   #133
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Jameis Winston may not be suspended automatically from FSU's football team if he is charged with in the assault case - Orlando Sentinel

Actually, I think you are quite wrong and...unless you are an actual member of the FSU committee, don't know whether there will be anything in this case that constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances.' That seems like a very potentially large 'gray area' that will be open to a lot of interpretation by said committee. If the case had proceeded forward and he was charged immediately with the crime, then I'd be more inclined to think the university would be more proactive in enforcing a 'black and white' approach to this case, but now...not so much.

And regardless of how anyone views it, we all know the football program basically drives a good majority of the university's revenue and overall national exposure.

This is far from a 'clear cut' situation.
Travis Johnson is going to be pissed off then since he was subject to the same rules as everyone else.

Winston is going to get special treatment, without a doubt, if he's charged and not suspended.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:48 PM   #134
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Cookies and ASU you both nailed it and I agree. If it were a different sport and circumstances i.e. not playing for a Championship, the player would be immediately kicked off the team. I am sure of that. Its unfortunate that the TRUE circumstances are the championship, but thats sports life, and how it would be if this were basketball. What I am saying is that they can use the 11 month thing as circumstances to keep it in the grey area and let him play.
Exactly.

Every large university puts 'clauses' in their regulations to protect their program and investments.

I'll equate this to an insurance agency. They have specific guidelines and clauses in their contracts that help protect themselves:

ie, all payouts are not final and can be retroactively taken back if it is later found that fraud is involved......insurance claims are only valid if established within a certain amount of time after the accident occurred....etc

That's just how business in general works. And more often than not, when there is a gray area, the business will take the approach that works best in their favor.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:50 PM   #135
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Here is an example from last week that happened with false accusation. They are two separate articles posted one day after the next. Its from Oakland. This is why I'm often weary about believing rape allegations against players. I realize its not always the circumstance, but makes me weary.

First Report

Two Oakland University basketball players -- including one NBA prospect -- were arrested Thursday morning after allegedly raping a woman in L.A., TMZ Sports has learned.

Law enforcement sources tell us, 23-year-old starting guard Duke Mondy and 20-year-old Dante Williams were arrested inside a Culver City hotel following an SVU investigation, and subsequently booked for rape. They are each currently being held on $100,000 bail.

We're told the alleged victim -- a female in her early 20s -- called 911 around 5AM Thursday morning to report she had just been raped inside the hotel. Details surrounding the incident are unclear.

Mondy -- who led D1 in steals last year -- and Williams were in town to play UCLA Tuesday night (Oakland U. lost 91-60).

The arrests are sure to throw a monkey wrench into Oakland U's performance in the Maui Invitational, which begins tonight. The team is scheduled to play Cal at Haas Pavilion in Berkeley, CA -- and Mondy and Williams have yet to bail out.

Second Report

The woman who accused Oakland Univ. basketball stars Duke Mondy and Dante Williams of rape had a wild night of sex before making her allegation ... this according to official documents obtained by TMZ.

The L.A. County D.A. rejected the case within 24 hours, and now we know why.

Mondy and Williams were in L.A. to play UCLA. After the game the alleged victim met Williams at the Marriott Hotel in Culver City. According to the D.A. document rejecting the case ... she went to Williams' room but he told her to leave because he was under a curfew.

The woman then met Mondy in the hallway, who invited her to his room. And that's when the sex started.

The woman says she had sex with Mondy but claimed she wasn't comfortable and she had told him to stop several times but he ignored her. Then Williams entered the room. She says she then had sex with him and groused about how aggressive Mondy had been.

Now get this. Then Mondy came back in the room and he asked if he could jump in bed with the woman and Williams, and everyone obliged.

After the 3-way, Mondy went back into his own bed and she climbed in for another round of sex.

The guys eventually asked her to leave, and when she hit the parking lot she started crying and told the parking attendant she "thought" she "might" have been raped.

Short story -- the D.A. kicked the case.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:54 PM   #136
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Travis Johnson is going to be pissed off then since he was subject to the same rules as everyone else.

Winston is going to get special treatment, without a doubt, if he's charged and not suspended.
I didn't say it's fair at all, but politics and business go hand-in-hand.


Convictions in sports is definitely a very tricky subject, which is why there are those clauses in place.

Why? Because being convicted of being in possession of marijuana or cocaine (ie, being arrested and found by the police in direct possesion of the substance on the spot), or being pulled over for a DUI.... are a LOT different than being accused of sexual assault. It is clearly a '2 sides to the story' vs 'the guy got flat out caught doing wrong.' Now...had the sexual assault victim gone to the police immediately and had lacerations and bruises all over her face and body from an actual physical assault as well, then that would make for a much more compelling case for immediate suspension. Again, I don't know the full details.

I personally think college athletics should take the same approach as the NFL when it comes to these sort of cases. All individuals in these kind of cases should be able to carry on with their normal lives until they are given a fair and just trial.

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Old 11-21-2013, 05:58 PM   #137
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All individuals in these kind of cases should be able to carry on with their normal lives until they are given a fair and just trial.
This.

Also there are circumstances as well that the university can manipulate i.e. Peter Warrick when they were going for a National Championship

"The Florida State Seminoles yesterday suspended Peter Warrick, the receiver who is a leading candidate for the Heisman Trophy, after he and a teammate were arrested in connection with a scheme to underpay for clothes at a department store in Tallahassee, Fla." <- Warrick immediately pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and kept playing.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:03 PM   #138
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Throw a twist into the civil discussion.

- Winston is charged
- Winston is suspended from football activities
- FSU fails to perform at the level with Winston
- Winston is acquitted of charge

Does FSU seek monetary compensation from the accuser for lost revenue?

All of this is hypothetical. I'm local, but I know nothing more than anyone else. I am not rushing to judgement.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:04 PM   #139
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This.

Also there are circumstances as well that the university can manipulate i.e. Peter Warrick when they were going for a National Championship

"The Florida State Seminoles yesterday suspended Peter Warrick, the receiver who is a leading candidate for the Heisman Trophy, after he and a teammate were arrested in connection with a scheme to underpay for clothes at a department store in Tallahassee, Fla." <- Warrick immediately pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and kept playing.
Warrick gave his Heisman to Ron Dayne that day. It was his up to that point. And a friend of mine, Lavernues, never again played for FSU.

And that wasn't even a 'scheme,' that was a zealous crush who provided them a close-out discount at the register.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:05 PM   #140
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Look at how the Patroits handled AH?

More serious yes. But Rape is Rape and this was brought to light before the fame came.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:12 PM   #141
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Jameis was pretty famous before he started at FSU though, right? I think he was the #1 QB in his class for football and a top 50 baseball prospect in his class as well...
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:16 PM   #142
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Wasn't a household name though?
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #143
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Jameis was pretty famous before he started at FSU though, right? I think he was the #1 QB in his class for football and a top 50 baseball prospect in his class as well...
Everyone knew who Jameis is his first day on campus.

Let me put it to you this way: If Lebron James actually went to college and not straight to the NBA, he would be the target of female affection basically everywhere he goes. It's just the society we live in.

But, I won't say if he is guilty or not, because that's not my place. He has yet to tell his side of the story, and should be given a fair trial.

A murder charge is a completely different monster that can't be compared to anything else. Being charged with taking someone's life isn't something that can be brushed under the PR rug no matter how the Patriots tried to spin it. They had to let him go.

People having sexual relations happens every day. And the amount of 'claimed female assault cases (not just sexual)' in professional sports seems to increase every year...with most being either completely false or later dropped.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:45 PM   #144
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Everyone knew who Jameis is his first day on campus.

Let me put it to you this way: If Lebron James actually went to college and not straight to the NBA, he would be the target of female affection basically everywhere he goes. It's just the society we live in.

But, I won't say if he is guilty or not, because that's not my place. He has yet to tell his side of the story, and should be given a fair trial.

A murder charge is a completely different monster that can't be compared to anything else. Being charged with taking someone's life isn't something that can be brushed under the PR rug no matter how the Patriots tried to spin it. They had to let him go.

People having sexual relations happens every day. And the amount of 'claimed female assault cases (not just sexual)' in professional sports seems to increase every year...with most being either completely false or later dropped.

She went to the ER as a rape victim.


She is much of human as he is.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:58 PM   #145
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She went to the ER as a rape victim.


She is much of human as he is.
Again, everything should come out in a fair trial.

I will say this though...it is absolutely disgusting how the florida PD actually came up to her and her lawyer and pursuaded them NOT to proceed with charges. If anything, I think those particular men in blue should be locked up.
We know there is this kind of corruption within police departments nationwide, but that's just downright despicable.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:59 PM   #146
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She went to the ER as a rape victim.
I am confused to where you see your reports. They're wrong from the official report. The alleged rape happened off campus at an apt. She then went back to her dorm and contacted FSU police who contacted TPD police since it happened off campus. The TPD police showed up, took her testimony, swabbed for DNA, and took pictures that showed no visible bruising.

I'm not sure who's saying she went to the ER.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:07 PM   #147
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On mike and mike this morning that victim has medical records as evidence.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:07 PM   #148
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The cops check for vaginal tearing as well?
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:10 PM   #149
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The cops check for vaginal tearing as well?
According to outside the lines they did and it was confirmed

Not good
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:13 PM   #150
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According to outside the lines they did and it was confirmed

Not good
The Cops did? Or ER?

She went to the Hospital.
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