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Old 06-12-2018, 11:48 AM   #301
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Having a large backlog is actually not a good thing, in most business circles.

In an ideal business exchange, a customer should get their good/service they need at the exact right time. Backlogs are one of the biggest things that companies struggle with - and most will tell you - they don't want them. On the surface, it may indicate that there is going to be a rise in sales, but realistically it shows increasing inefficiency in their processes or product chain, which has numerous implications to cash flow and expenses.

Let me throw this wrinkle you at in the whole situation. Last week my LCS sent off our most recent bulk submission. The day after receiving the order, Beckett invoiced my LCS for the FULL AMOUNT of the order and told them they would not be able to fulfill it until over a month later. Could be nothing, or it could be another indicator of some cash flow issues and why they need to have customers pay for a service that won't be completed for another 30+ days, today.
You're correct about the "in most circles" statement. I also think you would agree that our industry is a very specialized one where generic business issues don't apply. For example, let's say you need a couch asap and you try to order one and find it's on back order. You have a thousand other companies you can order a couch from. What do you do in the card grading world if BGS has slow turnaround times? Call PSA only to find out they're behind also? Much to their benefit and to our detriment, there's not a lot that can hurt the business of either company unless the market crashes.

To your last point, that may would be an issue if not for the fact that BGS has processed orders the exact same way for 20 years. BGS has always invoiced and charged cards far sooner than they get graded. Again, I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying it's nothing new.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:52 AM   #302
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It's this exact thought process that, in my OPINION, is the root of all of their problems. Obviously, I'm on the outside looking in. But once a business believes they're untouchable, watch out.
So how many grading companies have to come and go before you accept the grading industry for what it is? BGS has been behind for a year and how many more SGC mail days have we seen on here? How many have turned away from BGS and PSA and gone to SGC since both companies have been slow on turnaround times? We watched Global spend a ton of money hiring Mike Baker to make a run at BGS and PSA and where are they now? What was the last start up grading company to even be taken seriously? How many people are going to stop giving cards to BGS and give them to a start up nobody has ever heard of?

Like it or not, this is a 2 man show.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:58 AM   #303
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So how many grading companies have to come and go before you accept the grading industry for what it is? BGS has been behind for a year and how many more SGC mail days have we seen on here? How many have turned away from BGS and PSA and gone to SGC since both companies have been slow on turnaround times? We watched Global spend a ton of money hiring Mike Baker to make a run at BGS and PSA and where are they now? What was the last start up grading company to even be taken seriously? How many people are going to stop giving cards to BGS and give them to a start up nobody has ever heard of?

Like it or not, this is a 2 man show.
For now.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:59 AM   #304
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For now.
And forever. We all know it, some of us just have a harder time accepting things the way they are than others.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:08 PM   #305
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You're correct about the "in most circles" statement. I also think you would agree that our industry is a very specialized one where generic business issues don't apply. For example, let's say you need a couch asap and you try to order one and find it's on back order. You have a thousand other companies you can order a couch from. What do you do in the card grading world if BGS has slow turnaround times? Call PSA only to find out they're behind also? Much to their benefit and to our detriment, there's not a lot that can hurt the business of either company unless the market crashes.

To your last point, that may would be an issue if not for the fact that BGS has processed orders the exact same way for 20 years. BGS has always invoiced and charged cards far sooner than they get graded. Again, I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying it's nothing new.
I'd agree with up to a point - if Beckett was backlogged across all of their service-levels.

You don't think it's a cash grab ploy? You want something graded at 10-day service level, but we are telling you that's not an option any longer, so you will either have to:

A. Have patience and wait, or
B. Pay more for guaranteed service at 5- or 2-day service levels.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:28 PM   #306
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And forever. We all know it, some of us just have a harder time accepting things the way they are than others.
And some of us just assume that what has always been always will be.

You draw comparisons to the past. Tell me when the circumstances have ever been the same. PSA and Beckett are both having issues getting orders out. It's the first time that it's obvious there is room for a third.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:06 PM   #307
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#6 - He had a recommendation of getting rid of sub-grades completely. Told him that was a horrible idea. AGREE
#3 - I actually asked him to send me the test to send out to folks and he thought of doing it there. I'd love to take the grading test!
Personally I find it somewhat suspicious with a BGS slabs is missing the sub-grades.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:07 PM   #308
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And some of us just assume that what has always been always will be.

You draw comparisons to the past. Tell me when the circumstances have ever been the same. PSA and Beckett are both having issues getting orders out. It's the first time that it's obvious there is room for a third.
What he's saying is that it has been this way for a year and no other company has even had a small uptick. People just stick with what they know.

I agree the opportunity is there but you have to change a lot of minds. Also, if more people started going to said third company, in theory PSA and BGS would be able to catch up faster which would kill that third companies chance. SGC is the only company with a chance and what have we seen?
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:10 PM   #309
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I'd agree with up to a point - if Beckett was backlogged across all of their service-levels.

You don't think it's a cash grab ploy? You want something graded at 10-day service level, but we are telling you that's not an option any longer, so you will either have to:

A. Have patience and wait, or
B. Pay more for guaranteed service at 5- or 2-day service levels.
No, I don't think it's a cash grab. I think this will cost them tens of thousands of dollars in business but I think they have to do it. The 10 day level has always been their most popular level and I think the number of customers willing to pay up for the 5 or 2 day is very small.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:12 PM   #310
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Personally I find it somewhat suspicious with a BGS slabs is missing the sub-grades.
You shouldn't, the grade is still the same. I use the no sub-grade option frequently because it's faster and I can get it done a little cheaper. I can tell you I certainly haven't seen an uptick in higher grades.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:15 PM   #311
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What he's saying is that it has been this way for a year and no other company has even had a small uptick. People just stick with what they know.

I agree the opportunity is there but you have to change a lot of minds. Also, if more people started going to said third company, in theory PSA and BGS would be able to catch up faster which would kill that third companies chance. SGC is the only company with a chance and what have we seen?
Bingo. It's not as if these backlogs are new. BGS has been behind terribly for well over a year yet we've seen no increase in SGC stuff. In regards to a startup grading company, if one started tomorrow that offered 2 day turnaround for $5 how many people would send them cards that were nice enough that they had planned to send to BGS or PSA? I can answer that for you, it's zero. And that's the problem. Unless you can convince the masses that they all need to use the new company then it will never work.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:48 PM   #312
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No, I don't think it's a cash grab. I think this will cost them tens of thousands of dollars in business but I think they have to do it. The 10 day level has always been their most popular level and I think the number of customers willing to pay up for the 5 or 2 day is very small.
The nonguaranteed backlog, in my opinion, says a lot about what customers are willing to pay in order to get their cards graded. I think the hope was get rid of 20 day and if you move half of those customers to 10 day, you see a significant increase in profits. However, no one considered just how much the increase in 10 day orders would strangle them. Instead of 100 card batches going out 20 day, customers probably just subbed ten cards whenever they got around to acquiring ten cards worth subbing at the 10 day rate. Let's say what used to be a 100 card 20 day order turned into 4 10 day and one 60 card nonguaranteed order. No one took into consideration the added work that goes into processing 4 additional orders.

Now where things could get hairy is if a good chunk of people decided to move that 60 card nonguaranteed order over to PSA.

Full disclosure, you're talking to someone who used to.sub entirely with BGS and now only does 10% BGS. I have spent a whole lot more on cards over the past year and a half and have spent a whole lot less subbing cards to Beckett. Meanwhile, I went from spending $0 with PSA to giving them, oh I don't know, $3k over the past 14 months.

I'm definitely not the only.one.

I'd actually be willing to say it's feasible that Beckett is slammed and making LESS money. But I guess we'll never know.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:15 PM   #313
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The nonguaranteed backlog, in my opinion, says a lot about what customers are willing to pay in order to get their cards graded. I think the hope was get rid of 20 day and if you move half of those customers to 10 day, you see a significant increase in profits. However, no one considered just how much the increase in 10 day orders would strangle them. Instead of 100 card batches going out 20 day, customers probably just subbed ten cards whenever they got around to acquiring ten cards worth subbing at the 10 day rate. Let's say what used to be a 100 card 20 day order turned into 4 10 day and one 60 card nonguaranteed order. No one took into consideration the added work that goes into processing 4 additional orders.

Now where things could get hairy is if a good chunk of people decided to move that 60 card nonguaranteed order over to PSA.

Full disclosure, you're talking to someone who used to.sub entirely with BGS and now only does 10% BGS. I have spent a whole lot more on cards over the past year and a half and have spent a whole lot less subbing cards to Beckett. Meanwhile, I went from spending $0 with PSA to giving them, oh I don't know, $3k over the past 14 months.

I'm definitely not the only.one.

I'd actually be willing to say it's feasible that Beckett is slammed and making LESS money. But I guess we'll never know.
I'm about 70% BGS and 30% PSA. I do mostly Chrome prospects so the BGS 10 is pretty key to what I do. The backlog from both companies has changed the kind of cards I can do though and how I go about submitting them.

People moving the non-guaranteed orders over to PSA wouldn't bother BGS a bit right now. Don't forget, if they ever needed to they could run really good specials that could get them more cards than they could grade in a year. There's no such things as specials anymore. Can you imagine if they brought back the 10-10-10 even for a week? It would be chaos.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:09 PM   #314
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I'm about 70% BGS and 30% PSA. I do mostly Chrome prospects so the BGS 10 is pretty key to what I do. The backlog from both companies has changed the kind of cards I can do though and how I go about submitting them.

People moving the non-guaranteed orders over to PSA wouldn't bother BGS a bit right now. Don't forget, if they ever needed to they could run really good specials that could get them more cards than they could grade in a year. There's no such things as specials anymore. Can you imagine if they brought back the 10-10-10 even for a week? It would be chaos.
I do mostly chrome prospects and the PSA 10 bump over the BGS 9.5 has been treating me pretty well. I would say it's enough to offset the infrequent BGS 10 and the forever elusive black label.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:25 PM   #315
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What he's saying is that it has been this way for a year and no other company has even had a small uptick. People just stick with what they know.

I agree the opportunity is there but you have to change a lot of minds. Also, if more people started going to said third company, in theory PSA and BGS would be able to catch up faster which would kill that third companies chance. SGC is the only company with a chance and what have we seen?
Has SGC even tried? I'm assuming SGC office meetings involve cigars and Sinatra music. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it just doesn't play to the Ohtani audience.

You said it yourself that you were on your way to Taco Bell then other day. Remember when they were the only game in town? If you wanted "Mexican food" fast that was it. Then along came Chipotle. Same stuff on the inside, just a burrito vs. a taco. Now Taco Bell is trying to be like Chipotle.

You can't stay complacent in business. As long as a grading company shows up making burritos instead of tacos, we will see change happen.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:00 PM   #316
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Has SGC even tried? I'm assuming SGC office meetings involve cigars and Sinatra music. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it just doesn't play to the Ohtani audience.

You said it yourself that you were on your way to Taco Bell then other day. Remember when they were the only game in town? If you wanted "Mexican food" fast that was it. Then along came Chipotle. Same stuff on the inside, just a burrito vs. a taco. Now Taco Bell is trying to be like Chipotle.

You can't stay complacent in business. As long as a grading company shows up making burritos instead of tacos, we will see change happen.
Haha! I love your description of SGC meetings. They definitely should be trying harder. I'd be offering a dirt cheap rate to try to steal some of these upset customers.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the future. Clearly you want to see somebody challenge PSA and especially BGS in the marketplace and I think you're allowing it to convince you that it will happen but it's not. If the past 20 years has taught us anything it's that the big 2 are the big 2, for better or worse.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:39 PM   #317
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The nonguaranteed backlog, in my opinion, says a lot about what customers are willing to pay in order to get their cards graded. I think the hope was get rid of 20 day and if you move half of those customers to 10 day, you see a significant increase in profits. However, no one considered just how much the increase in 10 day orders would strangle them. Instead of 100 card batches going out 20 day, customers probably just subbed ten cards whenever they got around to acquiring ten cards worth subbing at the 10 day rate. Let's say what used to be a 100 card 20 day order turned into 4 10 day and one 60 card nonguaranteed order. No one took into consideration the added work that goes into processing 4 additional orders.

Now where things could get hairy is if a good chunk of people decided to move that 60 card nonguaranteed order over to PSA.

Full disclosure, you're talking to someone who used to.sub entirely with BGS and now only does 10% BGS. I have spent a whole lot more on cards over the past year and a half and have spent a whole lot less subbing cards to Beckett. Meanwhile, I went from spending $0 with PSA to giving them, oh I don't know, $3k over the past 14 months.

I'm definitely not the only.one.

I'd actually be willing to say it's feasible that Beckett is slammed and making LESS money. But I guess we'll never know.
Do you thin 3k is a drop in the bucket over a 14 month period for either of these companies?
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:44 PM   #318
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Has SGC even tried? I'm assuming SGC office meetings involve cigars and Sinatra music. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it just doesn't play to the Ohtani audience.

You said it yourself that you were on your way to Taco Bell then other day. Remember when they were the only game in town? If you wanted "Mexican food" fast that was it. Then along came Chipotle. Same stuff on the inside, just a burrito vs. a taco. Now Taco Bell is trying to be like Chipotle.

You can't stay complacent in business. As long as a grading company shows up making burritos instead of tacos, we will see change happen.
Taco Bell is still better than Chipotle. Bring me something that ends in "berto's" and I will be a customer for life in the North East.

No they haven't but that is sort of the point. Even the only other semi-relevant company doesn't care enough to try and capitalize. There has to be a reason for that, doesn't there? Saying all 3 companies don't know how to run their business from your seat behind a computer is pretty damn easy. I'd bet they have done enough research and the cost/benefit of going after that business showed them it isn't worth it. If it's not worth it for them then why would someone fresh even give it a good ole college try?

In order for someone to take it over they need a technology that is more consistent and fair then training a human being. That technology is probably cost prohibitive at this time. Enough people know that is what needs to be done and I'd bet that companies are trying to figure out how to do it. Until that day, and if it's not Beckett or PSA, we won't see a major change at the top of this oligopoly.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:21 PM   #319
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Taco Bell is still better than Chipotle. Bring me something that ends in "berto's" and I will be a customer for life in the North East.


Taco Bell is trash. Straight dumpster food.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:27 PM   #320
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A non name grading company can come in and steal thunder from the big boys.

They just will never be able to do it by hiring a human who will slap a number on a label indicating the cards grade. Gonna have to get a lot more sophisticated and consistent than that.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:45 PM   #321
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A non name grading company can come in and steal thunder from the big boys.

They just will never be able to do it by hiring a human who will slap a number on a label indicating the cards grade. Gonna have to get a lot more sophisticated and consistent than that.
No they can't. The name on the slab is far more important than the consistency of the grading. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:48 PM   #322
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Taco Bell is still better than Chipotle. Bring me something that ends in "berto's" and I will be a customer for life in the North East.
Whatever credibility you once had has now been lost

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Saying all 3 companies don't know how to run their business from your seat behind a computer is pretty damn easy.
I didn't say PSA or SGC don't know how to run their businesses. I've had nothing but positive experiences with PSA and I literally know nothing about SGC. If I had to guess though, they have a niche with vintage that they're more than happy with and there's nothing wrong with that. Which is probably why they haven't made a push to acquire more business on modern cards.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:07 PM   #323
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SGC tried to roll out a new business model with computerized grading and automatic scanning of cards being graded, but it looks like it was released early and they've been accused of violating trademarks/patents.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:43 PM   #324
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SGC tried to roll out a new business model with computerized grading and automatic scanning of cards being graded, but it looks like it was released early and they've been accused of violating trademarks/patents.
Well there ya go. No wonder they've been quiet. They were trying to drop the bomb.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:39 AM   #325
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SGC tried to roll out a new business model with computerized grading and automatic scanning of cards being graded, but it looks like it was released early and they've been accused of violating trademarks/patents.
I don't think that is entirely accurate. They had a sneak preview web page up briefly. From my understanding, the new look is supposed to go live in July. As far as the violations. There is some bluster from a member on the net54 board. He may or may not have an actual case. Could just be upset that he got beaten to the punch. If there is an actual case, they would be very bad for SGC. They seem to have spent a lot of resources with this makeover. If they are forced to stay as is, they may have missed any opportunity to grow and piss off older customers at the same time.

Personally, I hope SGC knocks it out of the park and puts becomes a more viable number 3. I am firmly in the "wait and see" with all three companies.
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