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Old 06-25-2016, 03:50 AM   #126
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first of all, i dont know how the sole provider of nba cards can let the first pick in the draft, the 1 player that has been hyped for at least a couple years now, get signed exclusively to another company that cant make cards with actual uniforms on them. the nba itself should have made the panini contract state that they have access to every player, it doesnt have to be exclusive, but it cant be exclusive against them.

i didnt buy any or hardly any 15-16 products, but i will definitely not be buying a single 16-17 product other than if panini really improves prizm or another refractor product that doesnt need autos as much. it makes no sense now to buy national treasures when they have just taken a $2.5k+ rookie out of the product, or immaculate or flawless or anything over a mid-range product. im completely out, im not spending a bunch of money when the most expensive rookie unless he were to get hurt for the year, doesnt have autos in any products. ridiculous.

this hurts the nba period, australia is a huge market for cards, ben simmons could have led a major new collecting flow and interest from there. thats not gonna happen when hes exclusive to upper deck who has 3 products a year and other non-card stuff.

call me in 17-18.
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:58 AM   #127
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Maybe if panini didn't try and put a dagger into UD with getting the college license, this might not have happened. Payback is a (add your own)
They didn't put a dagger in anything, UD mounted an offer that was half their offer when they got it. College licensing and branding has gone up not down, so UD lowballing was not going to cut it.
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:01 AM   #128
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I think UD has something planned. Does anyone know if UD can produce Simmons cards in his Australian jersey? Rio is around the corner and that would give them a chance for GU jerseys from the Olympics and autos in his home countries jersey. I imagine his cards would be quite popular with the Aussies if he is shown in his home colours and GU Olympic cards would be bad ass!!! I know UD produces international cards in hockey so it wouldn't seem far off to make bball! I know I would absolutely love a sp authentic Jamal Murray in a team canada uniform with a GU patch from Rio (that is if they can squeak by in Manila).
He's not playing in the olympics. I think the best anyone will get is maybe he wears some Jordan brand Singlet and shorts pre game and they use that.
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:03 AM   #129
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Does anyone here not remember the pre-2008 draft days of collecting?

2007 Topps had Oden, UD Durant
2006 Topps had Morrison, UD had Roy
2005 UD had Paul
2004 Topps had Okafor, UD had Howard
2003 Topps had Hinrich, Ford, and Collison. UD had Lebron

Topps still made some fine Lebron rookie cards...
Lol, Topps made some stellar choices didn't they...

The only thing worse than event worn garbage is college uniform garbage.
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:03 AM   #130
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first of all, i dont know how the sole provider of nba cards can let the first pick in the draft, the 1 player that has been hyped for at least a couple years now, get signed exclusively to another company that cant make cards with actual uniforms on them. the nba itself should have made the panini contract state that they have access to every player, it doesnt have to be exclusive, but it cant be exclusive against them.

i didnt buy any or hardly any 15-16 products, but i will definitely not be buying a single 16-17 product other than if panini really improves prizm or another refractor product that doesnt need autos as much. it makes no sense now to buy national treasures when they have just taken a $2.5k+ rookie out of the product, or immaculate or flawless or anything over a mid-range product. im completely out, im not spending a bunch of money when the most expensive rookie unless he were to get hurt for the year, doesnt have autos in any products. ridiculous.

this hurts the nba period, australia is a huge market for cards, ben simmons could have led a major new collecting flow and interest from there. thats not gonna happen when hes exclusive to upper deck who has 3 products a year and other non-card stuff.

call me in 17-18.
NBAPA would not allow their members to be hamstrung to what deals they can and can not do. I agree would be nice but the PA wouldn't go for that language sadly.

Best case scenario for UD: Simmons becomes LeBron 2.0 and people run to their products and dump money in their coffers and they put him in everything from Draft Basketball to Dinosaurs.

Best case scenario for Panini: Simmons flops or struggles pretty badly and Ingram and another guy or two rises to the top and become stars. Causing there to be a Porzingis, KAT, Booker price level for those players. With a strong second shelf of stars price wise.

I can see it playing out either way to be honest, but this was not a good move for the hobby, but with LeBron emulating Jordan and Simmons being with LeBron's people I am not surprised.
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:16 AM   #131
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I guess I can take a year off on busting cases
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Old 06-25-2016, 09:20 AM   #132
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first of all, i dont know how the sole provider of nba cards can let the first pick in the draft, the 1 player that has been hyped for at least a couple years now, get signed exclusively to another company that cant make cards with actual uniforms on them. the nba itself should have made the panini contract state that they have access to every player, it doesnt have to be exclusive, but it cant be exclusive against them.
Yeah, it doesn't work that way with autographs. Panini can make all the non-auto'd cards and memorabilia cards they want because Simmons is under the NBA/PA, and it doesn't require any cooperation or input from the player. They can print them all day long and Simmons doesn't have to lift a finger, get paid for it, or even know they exist.

Autographs are a different thing entirely, players get paid well to sign them and have to put the work in. You can't force players to sign autographs for a company they don't want to sign for, or even sign autographs at all if they don't want to. If the player or his agent wants to sign with UD for whatever reason, be it for money or to follow your agent's other clientele, then there's nothing Panini or the NBA can do about it. He has a valuable commodity (his signature) that he can provide and it's his right to choose who he wants to work with to sell them.

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Old 06-25-2016, 10:26 AM   #133
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I do find it interesting that while the headline of their press release says it's an exclusive deal, nowhere in the actual release does it mention the deal being an exclusive. Just a little strange. The release itself leaves a bit to the reader's interpretation.
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:47 AM   #134
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Wonder if it will be awkward at the rookie photo shoot when everyone is getting pictures and signing sheets of stickers while he stands there during the autograph session. First was thinking he just wouldn't get invited but they need his event worn junk and some pictures.
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:59 AM   #135
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Wonder if it will be awkward at the rookie photo shoot when everyone is getting pictures and signing sheets of stickers while he stands there during the autograph session. First was thinking he just wouldn't get invited but they need his event worn junk and some pictures.
He would get invited regardless of his contract with UD. The rookie photoshoot is an NBA event, not a Panini event.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:13 AM   #136
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He could be slow out the gate and this would be a non issue. You could be regretting 3 years later and then overpaying for boxes and singles of the next Currys and Kawhis. Just saying that it's no guarantee the kid will flourish. Especially in an atmosphere that can't muster 20 wins.

Unless of course you just love the kid and want to collect him.....but I think the worry is more profit driven.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:21 AM   #137
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He could be slow out the gate and this would be a non issue. You could be regretting 3 years later and then overpaying for boxes and singles of the next Currys and Kawhis. Just saying that it's no guarantee the kid will flourish. Especially in an atmosphere that can't muster 20 wins.

Unless of course you just love the kid and want to collect him.....but I think the worry is more profit driven.
The outrage/concern is 100% profit driven.

Personally, I don't buy cases/boxes/packs so I don't really care about the whole situation. I'll never pull a non-auto'd Ben Simmons and get pissed about it, and I won't be searching ebay for Ben Simmons stuff so it doesn't effect me at all. I do think that this is going to make cards like his Prizm RC Silver Prizm sell like freaking hotcakes though, and that's not a terrible thing for the hobby. If Panini is smart they'll make his RCs short prints and really turn this thing into a frenzy, to where it's actually a special thing to pull a Ben Simmons base RC out of a pack.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:44 AM   #138
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The outrage/concern is 100% profit driven.

Personally, I don't buy cases/boxes/packs so I don't really care about the whole situation. I'll never pull a non-auto'd Ben Simmons and get pissed about it, and I won't be searching ebay for Ben Simmons stuff so it doesn't effect me at all. I do think that this is going to make cards like his Prizm RC Silver Prizm sell like freaking hotcakes though, and that's not a terrible thing for the hobby. If Panini is smart they'll make his RCs short prints and really turn this thing into a frenzy, to where it's actually a special thing to pull a Ben Simmons base RC out of a pack.
His patches will pry sell well as well even though they are event worn. Would be cool if Panini went out of there way to get game worn stuff from him as soon as they can. Would for sure sell insanely well and would make up for them not getting him under contract. I personally care less though as I open a box here or there but never do cases so i'm not looking for profit.

To your above message, didn't realize the photo shoot wasn't put together by Panini, always thought it was done by the card companies or at least card company driven.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:58 AM   #139
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I don't like what Panini is doing, so on one hand I'm glad someone stuck it to them (I am rooting for failure because I never want MLB to go with Panini). But I also don't like the apparent lack of transparency afforded to the players regarding hobby impact. If Ben Simmons is not a card collector, do you think he REALLY understands the fact that he will never have a pro-uniform autographed card in the mainstream hobby? Does he realize how many fans/collectors he has disappointed with this decision? Likely not. He sees "Upper Deck", probably remembers UD from his childhood, and assumes all things are the same. I think these players should be sitting down with people first to educate them on the "new" hobby" and what an exclusive means in terms of product being released. It's the blind leading the blind...Jordan and Lebron would change the hobby forever if they ever went to Panini. Do any of these players even realize this? For as much as I hate to admit it, Panini at this point should have full rights to every player because they are the only ones capable of making the fully licensed cards at this point.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:11 PM   #140
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Ben Simmons off-court attire relic?
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Old 06-25-2016, 01:14 PM   #141
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I don't like what Panini is doing, so on one hand I'm glad someone stuck it to them (I am rooting for failure because I never want MLB to go with Panini). But I also don't like the apparent lack of transparency afforded to the players regarding hobby impact. If Ben Simmons is not a card collector, do you think he REALLY understands the fact that he will never have a pro-uniform autographed card in the mainstream hobby? Does he realize how many fans/collectors he has disappointed with this decision? Likely not. He sees "Upper Deck", probably remembers UD from his childhood, and assumes all things are the same. I think these players should be sitting down with people first to educate them on the "new" hobby" and what an exclusive means in terms of product being released. It's the blind leading the blind...Jordan and Lebron would change the hobby forever if they ever went to Panini. Do any of these players even realize this? For as much as I hate to admit it, Panini at this point should have full rights to every player because they are the only ones capable of making the fully licensed cards at this point.


He's represented by LeBron's people. It is no accident or coincidence and has nothing to do with BS's knowledge of sports card autograph ramifications. He's getting paid. His people are getting their cut. They care not about your desire to have his NT RPA.


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Old 06-25-2016, 01:45 PM   #142
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I don't like what Panini is doing, so on one hand I'm glad someone stuck it to them (I am rooting for failure because I never want MLB to go with Panini). But I also don't like the apparent lack of transparency afforded to the players regarding hobby impact. If Ben Simmons is not a card collector, do you think he REALLY understands the fact that he will never have a pro-uniform autographed card in the mainstream hobby? Does he realize how many fans/collectors he has disappointed with this decision? Likely not. He sees "Upper Deck", probably remembers UD from his childhood, and assumes all things are the same. I think these players should be sitting down with people first to educate them on the "new" hobby" and what an exclusive means in terms of product being released. It's the blind leading the blind...Jordan and Lebron would change the hobby forever if they ever went to Panini. Do any of these players even realize this? For as much as I hate to admit it, Panini at this point should have full rights to every player because they are the only ones capable of making the fully licensed cards at this point.
I honestly think the majority of players don't know, or care, what effect their decisions have on the hobby. They're just signing for the money and not to make rip-and-flippers rich. They'll say the right things in the press releases about being "proud to join the _____ team" and yada yada yada, but beyond that it's just another pay check. This hobby, as important as it is to us, is just another thing on their plate besides endorsements, selling signature shoe lines, commercials, or whatever else.
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:01 PM   #143
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How did Simmons do outside the paint area shooting?

Ingram dominates him outside the paint area in shooting percentage.

Ingram better FT Shooter

Ingram 22 more Blocks than Simmons

SOS for Ingram was much harder than Simmons in doing this.

Simmons won't be able to drive to the basket as easily and get the easy hoops like he did in the SEC, he will have to learn to shoot a higher percentage outside of the paint.

Ingram comes in as a shooter that needs to refine his game and be able to deal with the wear and tear of the NBA.

Personally, I like Ingram, but Simmons is what if what if what. If he does this and if he does that, then yes he can become a good player, but he has some huge question marks that his time at LSU did not answer.


lebron doesn't shoot that well from outside either. so what.........

simmons is 6'10 240.......if simmons won't be able to drive (which I think is pure bs, then ingram definately won't be able to)

what constitutes that he can't drive to the basket? some guy on espn? there is nothing that says he won't be a beast in the NBA other than some analyst, or message board guy....

he's 19.... he has potential to drive to the basket and tear your arm off now and in the future, get him a point guard and let him eat.

ingram is cool but he's going to get pushed around. he "HAS" to be nice at shooting, he's frail.
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Old 06-25-2016, 05:20 PM   #144
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lebron doesn't shoot that well from outside either. so what.........

simmons is 6'10 240.......if simmons won't be able to drive (which I think is pure bs, then ingram definately won't be able to)

what constitutes that he can't drive to the basket? some guy on espn? there is nothing that says he won't be a beast in the NBA other than some analyst, or message board guy....

he's 19.... he has potential to drive to the basket and tear your arm off now and in the future, get him a point guard and let him eat.

ingram is cool but he's going to get pushed around. he "HAS" to be nice at shooting, he's frail.
No what constitutes his inability to drive is when he played harder strength of schedule teams his ability to drive to the hoop went down dramatically and his shot percentage fell there.

LeBron's shooting outside the paint was never in the teens, ever.

Nothing to say he will be a beast either.
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:31 PM   #145
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the fact is, for panini, it probably wont make any difference, it just saves them money not having to pay him. unless it turns out they dont sell out of their products. it seems like they apparently are in the previous years. who knows. the thing is that they dont want to start setting a precedent where the #1 or #2 picks holds them up for enormous price increases over previous years. if they go into a big thing to successfully outbid u.d. for simmons, then what is next years top picks going to do. their agents will probably hold out for more money too.

its just bad mostly for collectors, and its also bad for the nba, because its possibly a weaker draft class to start with, and the next lebronesque player is not in the officially liscensed products. so there is going to be some level of dampened excitement, and sales, for cards this year. its not just about flippers and buy/sell people, with the price of cards nowadays not many people just buy them and keep everything. your taking the highest priced player out of all products, and the products themselves arent going to be cheaper pretty much at all, so its just tremendously less value than previous years.

for everyone who constantly wants topps and upper deck to be in the official nba market - this is what it would be like every single year, u.d. would have simmons and some other top picks, exclusive, panini might have ingram and other top pics, exclusive, & topps would have their exclusives too. all products would have their value destroyed by this.

its just terrible news for everyone other than the upper deck company. theres no other way to put it. having a simmons base card possibly be worth more now in no way offsets him missing autos from every single panini product. and they arent working out a deal for nt/immaculate/flawless - upper deck isnt leaf, so dont think that will ever happen. upper deck wouldnt make that deal no matter what money panini offered.
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:59 PM   #146
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I like how the automatic fallback for Simmons' horrific lack of a consistent jumpshot just so happens to be the greatest player in the world, Lebron.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:18 PM   #147
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No what constitutes his inability to drive is when he played harder strength of schedule teams his ability to drive to the hoop went down dramatically and his shot percentage fell there.

LeBron's shooting outside the paint was never in the teens, ever.

Nothing to say he will be a beast either.
he's never going to be lebron, but there is plenty to say he will be a beast, he's already been one.

he's probably more along the lines of a blake griffin, than a lebron....... lebron is a once in a generation type of player, to me ben simmons is not, but he is an allstar caliber player and still going to be great..........

ingram has a very easy chance of being a very average player in the league, that size makes alot of difference, if your weight isn't right you have to be really really good, I don't think he's that caliber.

not at all saying that simmons is the future of the NBA and the greates of all time, that's what alot of people compare to I guess, if you can't be lebron or better than people don't care?
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:24 PM   #148
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No what constitutes his inability to drive is when he played harder strength of schedule teams his ability to drive to the hoop went down dramatically and his shot percentage fell there.

LeBron's shooting outside the paint was never in the teens, ever.

Nothing to say he will be a beast either.
This is the problem, you're trying to make out that he won't be good and you're also saying he's gonna be a bust. That's pure garbage, nobody is saying he's gonna be a superstar.

Here's a nice read. And there are a couple more that are even more favourable towards Simmons.

NBA Draft Expert's Ultimate Tale of the Tape: Ben Simmons vs. Brandon Ingram | Bleacher Report

Simmons will be just fine in the NBA, yes he'll need to get a better shot, so what, do you know how many players have come in without a jumpshot? Hell Tony Parker was TERRIBLE outside of the paint in his first few years.

It's not like Simmons has no touch.

His passing is really on LeBron's level, there's not too many guys that can stand out at the top of the 3 and make that pass to the corner 3 shooter coming off a screen. Unfortunately I'm not sure who's gonna be shooting those 3s for Philly, Stauskas? Ouch.

Simmons draft measurements are similar to Blake Griffin, another guy that didn't have a jump shot.

I mean hell, he might be awful, but Philly plays at a good pace, and they are desperate for a playmaker, they have decent bigs that can finish and Simmons is just not going to have trouble getting rebounds and pushing the break.

Superstar? Who the hell knows, if he gets ROY and becomes a legit starter in the League in the Giannis or Odom mould or even sniffs 1/3 of LeBron's level then that's a win for Philly.

The argument he played against weaker College teams doesn't really wash as he also had average teammates.

But we'll see.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:32 PM   #149
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PANINI screwed the collectors by having a damn exclusive to begin with!!!!
Its the NBA Properties arm of the business that screwed us all for deciding to go with an exclusive licence.

And yes, Panini has screwed us all.

Feel sorry for the NFL collectors, next year they will come to terms with what its like under a Panini NFL exclusive.

Us NBA collectors have had 6 years to deal with this crap.

Panini NBA exclusive contract ends after the 2016/17 season.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:42 PM   #150
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Its the NBA Properties arm of the business that screwed us all for deciding to go with an exclusive licence.
Topps and UpperDeck were actually pushing the NBA, NHL, NFL and MLB to adopt exclusives so they could "better serve" fans and customers while making the leagues and companies more money.
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