Blowout Cards Forums
2017 Holiday Madness

Go Back   Blowout Cards Forums > BLOWOUTS HOBBY TALK > BASEBALL

Notices

BASEBALL Post your Baseball Cards Hobby Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-02-2016, 03:33 AM   #1
MOONBASE1
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 249
Default Grading cards by computer

Do you think it may happen someday? Would you want it? Would it provide consistency and level the grading card field? Be foolproof? Does the technology exist now? What say you.
MOONBASE1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 03:40 AM   #2
sbfinley
Member
 
sbfinley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nashville, Tn
Posts: 780
Default

As crazy as it sounds, I was told awhile back that a pair of collectors were working on some sort of digital grading software or system. The description of it was quite vague, but I don't doubt the source.

Asking if it's foolproof however? How much of your modern technology works seamlessly every time?

I'm sure we'll find out one day.
sbfinley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 03:43 AM   #3
NickM
Member
 
NickM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,690
Default

A company called CTA tried this about 1999-2000.
Their technology wasn't able to detect alterations.

Even if a new company's technology appeared able to detect alterations, would people trust its accuracy?
__________________
1st superfractor hit by RK Collectibles. 2014 Bowman Chrome Mini BB Chris Kohler.
"What do we want?"
"Time travel."
"And when do we want it?"
"It's irrelevant."
NickM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 11:37 AM   #4
davidk
Member
 
davidk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickM View Post
A company called CTA tried this about 1999-2000.
Their technology wasn't able to detect alterations.

Even if a new company's technology appeared able to detect alterations, would people trust its accuracy?
i can pretty much say right now I don't trust human accuracy. Hence the "regrading and regarding and regrading" business people are into.

I'm pretty certain that computers will do a better job in the future. And I think once they get it right, there won't be much regrading going on.
__________________
T206 Hall of Fame Run: 26/80 Hindu Back Run: 35/198 ?
1953 & 54 Topps Raw Set:100% Complete - VG-EX
1986 Fleer Basketball PSA Set - 100% Complete Grade: PSA 8
davidk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 11:46 AM   #5
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Definitely a job for computers. The only issue current computers would have would be with detecting authentic material (paper, cardboard, etc)

But if computers can grade cards, they'd also be able to produce 'em perfect... if there's such a demand for perfect cards, manufacturers will start making them... but doing so will kill the demand... kind of a catch-22 that says something about graded cards...
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 11:57 AM   #6
motu79
Member
 
motu79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Spokane
Posts: 2,635
Default

I always thought it would be cool if PSA or BGS would video the cards being graded so you can get an explanation on the grades for each card. Kind of like watching a box break.
motu79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 12:25 PM   #7
NoleinJax
Member
 
NoleinJax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: No clue anymore
Posts: 4,032
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by motu79 View Post
I always thought it would be cool if PSA or BGS would video the cards being graded so you can get an explanation on the grades for each card. Kind of like watching a box break.
First, they would all need to know what they hell they were doing. The inconsistency along with the fact that some customers get preferential treatment has kept me from sending any cards in. Do the companies at least give people a report on why a card was docked a 1/2 point or more? There really should be more transparency with them imo.
NoleinJax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 12:33 PM   #8
ericg531
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 843
Default

Hopefully someone can do this someday, people aren't very good graders I know that. I'd rather have a card graded on actual condition as opposed to what some guy thinks.

A lot of companies could use technology to improve their products as well. I still can't understand why Topps cuts their cards the old fashioned way, obviously they let the drunkest guy at the factory have that job. Nothing like pulling a super rare auto or rare card that is way OC, in this day and age that shouldn't be happening.
ericg531 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 12:51 PM   #9
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericg531 View Post
Hopefully someone can do this someday, people aren't very good graders I know that. I'd rather have a card graded on actual condition as opposed to what some guy thinks.

A lot of companies could use technology to improve their products as well. I still can't understand why Topps cuts their cards the old fashioned way, obviously they let the drunkest guy at the factory have that job. Nothing like pulling a super rare auto or rare card that is way OC, in this day and age that shouldn't be happening.
Clearly a manufacturer could take a set with a limited print run (say, 2015 Topps Chrome Superfractors, or 2014 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractors) and make them all BGS 10 without a lot of effort - the set has such a small print run. There certainly seems to be demand for something like this, no? Why then doesn't Topps make small sets perfect to make their customers happy?

Think of this promotion: Topps inserts a redemption for an entire set of BGS 10 cards (you pick the set). If graded cards are so popular and the demand for BGS 10 cards is there, why doesn't Topps do something like this??

The hobby can be very ugly at times. It's easy to think Topps is receiving kickbacks from grading companies...
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:20 AM   #10
NoleinJax
Member
 
NoleinJax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: No clue anymore
Posts: 4,032
Default

Does anyone use something like this to gauge a card's condition before sending in?
https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Micr...=usb+magnifier

I bought one to test out. The base is big enough for cards and has a grid set up that should make determining centering 100% accurate as long as you have the correct reference points and the magnifier is more than enough to look for surface flaws. I just got it in yesterday and haven't set it up yet though. Hopefully I won't have to return.
NoleinJax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 11:46 AM   #11
nayrnalon
Banned - PBM
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 335
Default

So.... you want a machine to grade every card the same?

Sounds logical. Have any of you examined the edges of a perfect 2011 bowman bowmans best Bryce Harper? How about the difference between paper and chrome? Acetate cards?

If everything was graded by one standard, no card would be higher than a 9. Have fun with that.
nayrnalon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 01:01 PM   #12
smackvay
Member
 
smackvay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: west virginia
Posts: 10,102
Default

Not gonna happen


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
SUPERCOLLECTOR LOOKING FOR PAT WHITE CARDS
NEED SILVER? HAVE SILVER? PM ME EITHER WAYAS IVE GOT PLENTY OF PAYPAL TO PURCHASE YOUR SILVER
smackvay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 07:49 PM   #13
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nayrnalon View Post
So.... you want a machine to grade every card the same?

Sounds logical. Have any of you examined the edges of a perfect 2011 bowman bowmans best Bryce Harper? How about the difference between paper and chrome? Acetate cards?

If everything was graded by one standard, no card would be higher than a 9. Have fun with that.
What's the problem with that? If grading meant anything, it wouldn't matter.

Someone who doesn't understand cards from some sets are more condition sensitive than others probably shouldn't be buying graded examples of them.

Consistent grading is, by any measure, key, and what grading must be about if it is to mean anything.

Someone buying someone else's subjective "opinion" - which is all grading is today - is a joke when someone can buy a fact, something an objective computer program can provide.
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 08:10 PM   #14
Qwasian
Member
 
Qwasian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 11,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowkiller View Post
What's the problem with that? If grading meant anything, it wouldn't matter.

Someone who doesn't understand cards from some sets are more condition sensitive than others probably shouldn't be buying graded examples of them.

Consistent grading is, by any measure, key, and what grading must be about if it is to mean anything.

Someone buying someone else's subjective "opinion" - which is all grading is today - is a joke when someone can buy a fact, something an objective computer program can provide.

being perfect isn't always the best way...... humans operate under a flawed system, for example what if everytime you went over or under the speed limit you got a ticket? everything can't be exact and people shouldn't try to make it that way. people aren't machines, they are never going to be perfect, the greatness comes from the imperfection.
__________________
buying Andrew Wiggins, Karl-Anthony Towns, Marcus Mariota, Jameis Winston, Amari Cooper, Todd Gurley, Odell Beckham Jr. and Star Player RC bgs slabs.
Qwasian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 08:18 PM   #15
Metsfan1121
Member
 
Metsfan1121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: long island
Posts: 5,316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericg531 View Post
Hopefully someone can do this someday, people aren't very good graders I know that. I'd rather have a card graded on actual condition as opposed to what some guy thinks.

A lot of companies could use technology to improve their products as well. I still can't understand why Topps cuts their cards the old fashioned way, obviously they let the drunkest guy at the factory have that job. Nothing like pulling a super rare auto or rare card that is way OC, in this day and age that shouldn't be happening.
You'd be surprised at the inaccuracy of modern technology. Most offset printers I've used require a bleed (margin of error) of at least 1/8" on all sides. While you don't notice 1/8" off on a t shirt or menu or poster, it's very apparent that it's off center on a card, especially ones with thin borders. Take a look at Stadium Club, which is borderless if I remember correctly. On those cards, I bet everything looks perfectly centered.

tl;dr everything in life is off center, it's just easy to notice on baseball cards
Metsfan1121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 09:16 PM   #16
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwasian View Post
being perfect isn't always the best way...... humans operate under a flawed system, for example what if everytime you went over or under the speed limit you got a ticket? everything can't be exact and people shouldn't try to make it that way. people aren't machines, they are never going to be perfect, the greatness comes from the imperfection.
Not seeing how any of this applies -- unless you're paying to get speeding tickets issued to you.

LOL, the profit comes from the many imperfections in the system here, not from any perceived greatness.

If anyone's paying money, the service should be as perfect as possible otherwise it's corrupt!
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:08 PM   #17
mjohnatgt
Member
 
mjohnatgt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Niceville, FL
Posts: 3,229
Default

So the vintage card market is exploding based on the rare high grade rookie cards and HOF cards. Say the computer grading companies started grading what is currently a 6 as a 7.5 and what PSA says is a 7.5 as a 9. Will people actually give credence (as in, higher bids) for cards that are CompuGrade 9.0s over PSA 8s?
One of the main drivers for PSA grading is the Set Registry, which as first movers, PSA will not lose market share for the majority of grading unless someone builds a better mousetrap when it comes to a set registry. It's not just accurate grading, it's the stuff that goes with it to elevate the prices paid.
__________________
Still trying to complete the Jordy Lara 2015 Bowman Draft paper and chrome rainbows. Need metallic paper, red paper.
UPDATE: Chrome rainbow complete.
<<<< 55% off at COMC right now
mjohnatgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:19 PM   #18
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjohnatgt View Post
So the vintage card market is exploding based on the rare high grade rookie cards and HOF cards. Say the computer grading companies started grading what is currently a 6 as a 7.5 and what PSA says is a 7.5 as a 9. Will people actually give credence (as in, higher bids) for cards that are CompuGrade 9.0s over PSA 8s?
One of the main drivers for PSA grading is the Set Registry, which as first movers, PSA will not lose market share for the majority of grading unless someone builds a better mousetrap when it comes to a set registry. It's not just accurate grading, it's the stuff that goes with it to elevate the prices paid.
I don't see how a serious collector or investor would want to pay for a subjective opinion over an objective one. The subjectively graded stuff would decline in value.

But if anyone's computer or phone could grade a card, the grading system we currently have could be obsolete anyway.
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:47 PM   #19
mjohnatgt
Member
 
mjohnatgt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Niceville, FL
Posts: 3,229
Default

I'm saying people won't try it en masse without big sales forcing people to reconsider where they get their cards graded. Why would someone send a 1952 Topps Mantle to a computerized grading service when the same grade at PSA would equate to $100,000. It's a downside risk to grade cards from unknown or barely used services, not just because of the possible inaccuracy, but because the buyers are already predisposed to prefer modern cards in BGS, vintage in PSA, and 19th Century in SGC, for example.

There are plenty of technologies that were better than their predecessors that failed, not because of the product, but because they couldn't grab market share either through bad advertising, or inability to draw customers away from tried and true products. That's where I think this idea would fail.
__________________
Still trying to complete the Jordy Lara 2015 Bowman Draft paper and chrome rainbows. Need metallic paper, red paper.
UPDATE: Chrome rainbow complete.
<<<< 55% off at COMC right now
mjohnatgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:49 PM   #20
justinstaff756
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Virginia
Posts: 332
Default

I want a subjective opinion. Every card is actually different. No computer could understand that and compute it into a few basic grades and the idea of a set being all pristine is terrible. I don't want cards perfect from the get go-takes away from the grading. It's great the way it is and I grade thousands a year with both psa and bgs. Conspiracy theory's will get you nowhere and psa and bgs and sgc is where it's at. For everyone who doesn't grade based on a conspiracy-let me check out your inventory before you sell -there opinion is what makes the grade-not ours. If someone had a computer id love to watch as it would certainly fail
justinstaff756 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 10:54 PM   #21
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjohnatgt View Post
I'm saying people won't try it en masse without big sales forcing people to reconsider where they get their cards graded. Why would someone send a 1952 Topps Mantle to a computerized grading service when the same grade at PSA would equate to $100,000. It's a downside risk to grade cards from unknown or barely used services, not just because of the possible inaccuracy, but because the buyers are already predisposed to prefer modern cards in BGS, vintage in PSA, and 19th Century in SGC, for example.

There are plenty of technologies that were better than their predecessors that failed, not because of the product, but because they couldn't grab market share either through bad advertising, or inability to draw customers away from tried and true products. That's where I think this idea would fail.
Sure, you're talking about an adoption curve.

But the beauty of an objective grading service is that it produces reproduceable results -- and since it's not difficult to prove results are reproduceable, it would be easy to prove it's better than subjective grading. This all equals a small adoption curve.
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 11:50 PM   #22
mjohnatgt
Member
 
mjohnatgt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Niceville, FL
Posts: 3,229
Default

What I'm trying to say is that more accurate grading is not necessarily better. What if 1000 PSA 10s or BGS 9.5s are sent there to normalize grading and 20% score 8.5s, 20% score 9.0s, and 60% score 9.5/10 grades? People that are used to getting 10s/9.5 Gems won't stand for a lower percentage of their grades coming in.

Now if the price per card grade is $3/card or so it might not matter and a company may gain share just by being the cheapest. What type of scoring scale would this type of service have? SGC's 10-100 scale would make sense. What if the highest graded cards never get Pristines? Would that be a calibration issue or is it that a perfect card can't be manufactured?
__________________
Still trying to complete the Jordy Lara 2015 Bowman Draft paper and chrome rainbows. Need metallic paper, red paper.
UPDATE: Chrome rainbow complete.
<<<< 55% off at COMC right now
mjohnatgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2016, 12:21 AM   #23
rainbowkiller
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjohnatgt View Post
What I'm trying to say is that more accurate grading is not necessarily better. What if 1000 PSA 10s or BGS 9.5s are sent there to normalize grading and 20% score 8.5s, 20% score 9.0s, and 60% score 9.5/10 grades? People that are used to getting 10s/9.5 Gems won't stand for a lower percentage of their grades coming in.

Now if the price per card grade is $3/card or so it might not matter and a company may gain share just by being the cheapest. What type of scoring scale would this type of service have? SGC's 10-100 scale would make sense. What if the highest graded cards never get Pristines? Would that be a calibration issue or is it that a perfect card can't be manufactured?
Your case scenario doesn't make sense: nobody will care about the old PSA or BGS grades anymore because they used old, subjective grading techniques.

Upgrading to objective grading from subjective grading would be like upgrading from a model-T to a Ferrari.
rainbowkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2016, 08:25 AM   #24
mjohnatgt
Member
 
mjohnatgt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Niceville, FL
Posts: 3,229
Default

Saying that nobody will care about PSA or BGS is surprising. Dealers have poured millions of dollars into PSA, BGS, and SGC to inflate the value of their cards through high grades. It's part of the psyche of someone who grades cards. They are already bought in to the current grading services. Your theory that everyone would immediately adopt a computerized grading company would CRATER the investment the collector/investor community has already sunk into their card grading.
I think you're arguing BetaMax over VHS. VHS won not because of better technology, but because of better marketing. PSA/BGS have already won that battle. I think you're just arguing a straw man for the sake of arguing. Do you also think we'll colonize Mars at some point?
__________________
Still trying to complete the Jordy Lara 2015 Bowman Draft paper and chrome rainbows. Need metallic paper, red paper.
UPDATE: Chrome rainbow complete.
<<<< 55% off at COMC right now
mjohnatgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2016, 09:07 AM   #25
RichardGasner
Member
 
RichardGasner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,697
Default

Not sure if anybody has mentioned, because I was kinda tired of reading the back and forth.

If you take out flaws and imperfections, yes, every card would be in pristine condition.

Let's take a step back and realize why people pay so much money for the cardboard they buy.

1/1's - usually same photo, different colour, but it has a stamp that says 1/1.
1952 Mantle PSA 8 - why is it worth so much more than a PSA 4?
1990 Fleer Michael Jordan BGS 10 - Over $500????

The rarity of perfect is what has been driving the values up for all of these years.

If every card is perfect, they'd all be the same and become worthless.

Back to the OP. If Beckett or PSA were able to create a program to grade cards, I'd send many more in. For all of the reasons people say it's not possible, type of card, chrome vs paper, etc. They can always write these programs to judge differently based on set, boarder, colour, finish, etc.

They can always still have humans to enter necessary information when a card is being graded by a cpu for this to be feasible.

I'm tired of seeing a Red Auto having 8 grades in a pop report. That makes no sense and kills the value of grading for me.

Rant over
RichardGasner is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2013, Blowout Cards Inc.