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Old 02-09-2018, 11:09 AM   #51
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But that's not the point, and that's never been my point. You don't want to talk about illegal immigration; you want to discuss drunken driving, and this thread is specifically to discuss illegal immigration, as it relates to the death of Edwin Jackson. You suggesting that illegal immigration is not the cause of his death is ludicrous. Some other guy would have run him over eventually ...

Thousands of deaths annually in this country are caused by non-citizens of this country. Beyond the economical and social aspects of this; we have the ability to curb the number of deaths to citizens of this country by doing our best to shut down illegal immigration. WHY NOT DO IT?

You want to have a discussion on how to stop drunken driving, happy to do that with you in a thread in the OT section. But until you provide me any logical reason not to curb illegal immigration and stop saying "who cares about that, the real problem is drunken driving", there's no discussion to be had.
Stop making sense it doesn't work with liberals. They will just dodge the issue and then say we who disagree are racist
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:01 PM   #52
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But that's not the point, and that's never been my point. You don't want to talk about illegal immigration; you want to discuss drunken driving, and this thread is specifically to discuss illegal immigration, as it relates to the death of Edwin Jackson. You suggesting that illegal immigration is not the cause of his death is ludicrous. Some other guy would have run him over eventually ...

Thousands of deaths annually in this country are caused by non-citizens of this country. Beyond the economical and social aspects of this; we have the ability to curb the number of deaths to citizens of this country by doing our best to shut down illegal immigration. WHY NOT DO IT?

You want to have a discussion on how to stop drunken driving, happy to do that with you in a thread in the OT section. But until you provide me any logical reason not to curb illegal immigration and stop saying "who cares about that, the real problem is drunken driving", there's no discussion to be had.
Well said. I'm surprised they are even debating what you're saying.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:19 PM   #53
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There are just too many layers added to the incident that aren't helping reduce the cause of death, which is drunk driving, period.

Illegal immigration should be fixed, that's not an argument. But this death was caused by drunk driving and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This argument of Edwin Jackson still being here if not for the illegal immigrant is stupid. He would still be here if they hadn't stopped where he did. He would still be here if he took a taxi and not Uber (since the taxi would have taken longer to pick him up). He would still be here if he didn't get sick (I'm assuming he drank too much, that's why they had to stop). I could do this forever.

We could help reduce a lot of what happens in this country by doing A LOT of things, but to try and single out illegal immigration as the cause of this tragedy is ignorant to think.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:26 PM   #54
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But that's not the point, and that's never been my point. You don't want to talk about illegal immigration; you want to discuss drunken driving, and this thread is specifically to discuss illegal immigration, as it relates to the death of Edwin Jackson. You suggesting that illegal immigration is not the cause of his death is ludicrous. Some other guy would have run him over eventually ...

Thousands of deaths annually in this country are caused by non-citizens of this country. Beyond the economical and social aspects of this; we have the ability to curb the number of deaths to citizens of this country by doing our best to shut down illegal immigration. WHY NOT DO IT?

You want to have a discussion on how to stop drunken driving, happy to do that with you in a thread in the OT section. But until you provide me any logical reason not to curb illegal immigration and stop saying "who cares about that, the real problem is drunken driving", there's no discussion to be had.
There is no correlation between curbing the number of deaths by shutting down illegal immigration. There is no way to tell if deaths of americans increase or decrease from fixing another issue. Shutting down illegal immigration has its negatives as well when it comes to economics and labor.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:27 PM   #55
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There are just too many layers added to the incident that aren't helping reduce the cause of death, which is drunk driving, period.

Illegal immigration should be fixed, that's not an argument. But this death was caused by drunk driving and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This argument of Edwin Jackson still being here if not for the illegal immigrant is stupid. He would still be here if they hadn't stopped where he did. He would still be here if he took a taxi and not Uber (since the taxi would have taken longer to pick him up). He would still be here if he didn't get sick (I'm assuming he drank too much, that's why they had to stop). I could do this forever.

We could help reduce a lot of what happens in this country by doing A LOT of things, but to try and single out illegal immigration as the cause of this tragedy is ignorant to think.
He would also still be here if that ILLEGAL immigrant wasn't in the country. I don't know why this is so hard.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:31 PM   #56
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He would also still be here if that ILLEGAL immigrant wasn't in the country. I don't know why this is so hard.
Ok, I stand corrected. That factor and that factor alone would have prevented this from happening.

Thank god that's put to rest.
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:34 PM   #57
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Ok, I stand corrected. That factor and that factor alone would have prevented this from happening.

Thank god that's put to rest.
No that's not the only factor, and yes there are other things that we can do to stop drinking and driving related deaths. But fact of the matter is, if the illegal immigrant that had the wreck that killed him was not in this country in the first place, then he's still alive. I understand that there are other factors and things that need to be addressed, but that does not take away from the FACT that someone who is in this country illegally caused his death, when that person shouldn't be in this country to begin with.
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Old 02-09-2018, 02:02 PM   #58
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I can appreciate reading this whole thread but it saddens me at the same time. I can understand the points of both sides (don't necessarily have to agree.)

But there is no simple fix. A damn wall doesn't fix what happened to Mr. Jackson here. A wall will be a symbol of this administration's run. You think a structure above ground will keep people out? You gonna wall all our borders especially those by water? Will it fix some things? Sure. Will it fix our immigration system? Hell no!

Shame on this man for the grief he has caused multiple families, even his own. Especially in a place where he did not have the right to be. But I ask my self a question.

If he was a Guatemalan visiting family on vacation and happened to have too much to drink and killed someone, would I be as mad as just being able to say he was an illegal alien? What if I, or someone I knew took a trip out of the country and made a horrific mistake and got behind a wheel intoxicated and killed someone? Would people on a message board say this damn American came into our country and killed a citizen.

Meh, I take the side of an awful tragedy here. Unfortunate coincidence to the highest level. If this man was deported would Mr Jackson be alive? Yes. If Mr Jackson decided to go home at 3am instead of 4am would he be alive? Yes. If he didn't feel sick in the car that the Uber had to pull over would he be alive? Yes. If the Uber driver stopped at a different part of the freeway rather then where he did would he be alive? Yes.

The man to blame is the drunk driver 100% But the innocent parties made decisions that unfortunately put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now 2 innocent people are dead for it and everyone is trying to find a solution as to how it could have been prevented.

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Old 02-09-2018, 02:18 PM   #59
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I can appreciate reading this whole thread but it saddens me at the same time. I can understand the points of both sides (don't necessarily have to agree.)

But there is no simple fix. A damn wall doesn't fix what happened to Mr. Jackson here. A wall will be a symbol of this administration's run. You think a structure above ground will keep people out? You gonna wall all our borders especially those by water? Will it fix some things? Sure. Will it fix our immigration system? Hell no!

Shame on this man for the grief he has caused multiple families, even his own. Especially in a place where he did not have the right to be. But I ask my self a question.

If he was a Guatemalan visiting family on vacation and happened to have too much to drink and killed someone, would I be as mad as just being able to say he was an illegal alien? What if I, or someone I knew took a trip out of the country and made a horrific mistake and got behind a wheel intoxicated and killed someone? Would people on a message board say this damn American came into our country and killed a citizen.

Meh, I take the side of an awful tragedy here. Unfortunate coincidence to the highest level. If this man was deported would Mr Jackson be alive? Yes. If Mr Jackson decided to go home at 3am instead of 4am would he be alive? Yes. If he didn't feel sick in the car that the Uber had to pull over would he be alive? Yes. If the Uber driver stopped at a different part of the freeway rather then where he did would he be alive? Yes.

The man to blame is the drunk driver 100% But the innocent parties made decisions that unfortunately put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now 2 innocent people are dead for it and everyone is trying to find a solution as to how it could have been prevented.
Too bad you're just over-looking the fact that there was an illegal immigrant involved.

If the roles were reversed and an American was driving while intoxicated and ran over 2 illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be such an uproar from the president or a lot of people in this thread either. That's what has become sickening in this country.
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Old 02-09-2018, 02:22 PM   #60
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Too bad you're just over-looking the fact that there was an illegal immigrant involved.

If the roles were reversed and an American was driving while intoxicated and ran over 2 illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be such an uproar from the president or a lot of people in this thread either. That's what has become sickening in this country.
Well I did say above that if this specific man was deported Mr Jackson would be alive. That's acknowledging quite a bit in my eyes
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:53 PM   #61
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Too bad you're just over-looking the fact that there was an illegal immigrant involved.

If the roles were reversed and an American was driving while intoxicated and ran over 2 illegal immigrants, there wouldn't be such an uproar from the president or a lot of people in this thread either. That's what has become sickening in this country.
Couple points to make specifically about this post (Ignoring the sarcasm at the beginning.

When Oscar Taveras took his fancy fast car, drove drunk and smashed himself into a tree, killing himself and his girlfriend, I spoke passionately about it on this forum. IMHO, when a person makes the decision to operate a vehicle, wasted; I'd much prefer they drive themselves into a tree than murder anyone else. It's an awful, awful, awful decision and drunken driving is unforgivable to me. Whether you make it home OK or not, I have a hard time reconciling people that make that decision.

Your hypothetical may sway opinion with some, but it does not with me. It would be hard for me to think less of someone that drives drunk, no matter their sex, religion, race, ethnicity or legal status. Similarly, it would be harder for me to empathize more with the families of innocent victims, regardless of their sex, religion, race, ethnicity or legal status. I understand there are people who value human life differently based on these factors, but I do not.

Please understand me however, as I say this for a 10th time. This. Does. Not. Change. My. Point.

Through a simple implementation of E-Verify, stronger border security and a wall (hell, even without the wall), the number of illegal immigrants coming to the US every year can be largely reduced. As a result, the number of violent crimes in this country would be reduced ... nothing more than removing X number of people from a population of Y.

Less Americans die.

This point cannot be disputed. That is my only point, and the only thing I'm trying to convey when discussing this specific tragedy.
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:17 PM   #62
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Couple points to make specifically about this post (Ignoring the sarcasm at the beginning.

When Oscar Taveras took his fancy fast car, drove drunk and smashed himself into a tree, killing himself and his girlfriend, I spoke passionately about it on this forum. IMHO, when a person makes the decision to operate a vehicle, wasted; I'd much prefer they drive themselves into a tree than murder anyone else. It's an awful, awful, awful decision and drunken driving is unforgivable to me. Whether you make it home OK or not, I have a hard time reconciling people that make that decision.

Your hypothetical may sway opinion with some, but it does not with me. It would be hard for me to think less of someone that drives drunk, no matter their sex, religion, race, ethnicity or legal status. Similarly, it would be harder for me to empathize more with the families of innocent victims, regardless of their sex, religion, race, ethnicity or legal status. I understand there are people who value human life differently based on these factors, but I do not.

Please understand me however, as I say this for a 10th time. This. Does. Not. Change. My. Point.

Through a simple implementation of E-Verify, stronger border security and a wall (hell, even without the wall), the number of illegal immigrants coming to the US every year can be largely reduced. As a result, the number of violent crimes in this country would be reduced ... nothing more than removing X number of people from a population of Y.

Less Americans die.

This point cannot be disputed. That is my only point, and the only thing I'm trying to convey when discussing this specific tragedy.
I found the points you made throughout this thread very fair.

While I agree with some, I find violence is just one of our immigration issues and the only one that is solved simply with less people in an area, less violence. I know you are mentioning this since it is relative to the topic at hand. But the simplicity you state isn't very simple. The chain reaction of deporting someone affects far more than just violent acts.

To name a couple, any employment they hold (as we all know a good percentage work) the country will lose on some tax payers (not saying you didn't know, but a lot don't know about ATIN/ITIN numbers)
Also, to buckle down on immigration and get stronger on deportation, I feel the country is forced to review their citizenship laws. Many are not happy that a baby born on US soil is an auto US Citizen, but that is the law... Someone will need to be here to raise that child whether legal or not
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:48 PM   #63
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I found the points you made throughout this thread very fair.

While I agree with some, I find violence is just one of our immigration issues and the only one that is solved simply with less people in an area, less violence. I know you are mentioning this since it is relative to the topic at hand. But the simplicity you state isn't very simple. The chain reaction of deporting someone affects far more than just violent acts.

To name a couple, any employment they hold (as we all know a good percentage work) the country will lose on some tax payers (not saying you didn't know, but a lot don't know about ATIN/ITIN numbers)
Also, to buckle down on immigration and get stronger on deportation, I feel the country is forced to review their citizenship laws. Many are not happy that a baby born on US soil is an auto US Citizen, but that is the law... Someone will need to be here to raise that child whether legal or not
I believe there's only one way to take care of this issue. The steps I mentioned above + legalization / amnesty / citizenship for everyone here in the DACA program. These steps are likely to shut down illegal immigration altogether, but I believe it reduces it very substantially, while allowing the kids who came here to stay. This won't apply to future moms and dads that come in illegally; but we're beyond the point of no return.

Allowing them to stay will also lessen any negative economic impact. Depending on what happens after these steps have been implemented; a look at citizenship laws would be appropriate (perhaps unnecessary if the steps above provide great positive impact).
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:14 PM   #64
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Well I did say above that if this specific man was deported Mr Jackson would be alive. That's acknowledging quite a bit in my eyes
He WAS deported. Twice.
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:27 PM   #65
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The word illegal
Is in the term illegal alien
And illegal immigrant
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:08 PM   #66
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Close all your borders. Don't let anyone in.

Crime will be eradicated immediately.
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:09 PM   #67
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Close all your borders. Don't let anyone in.

Crime will be eradicated immediately.
NO. we want people to come in. just do it legally.
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Old 02-11-2018, 07:11 PM   #68
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Nothing wrong with immigration

Just do it legally

Guess I must be racist like trump for believing people follow steps
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:56 PM   #69
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Through a simple implementation of E-Verify, stronger background checks and repealing PLCAA, the number of GUNS coming to the US every year can be largely reduced. As a result, the number of violent crimes in this country would be reduced ... nothing more than removing X number of GUNS from a population of Y.

Less Americans die.
It's crazy how much the above still works when you swap out illegal immigrants with guns.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:22 PM   #70
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It's crazy how much the above still works when you swap out illegal immigrants with guns.
Even crazier when you think how both are so far gone that nothing we do now will make much of a difference.
With that said, there is a huge difference in the fact that one was supposed to be illegal a long damn time ago, while the other is protected by our constitution.
Perhaps we should have sanctuary cities/states for gun owners.
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Old 02-16-2018, 11:31 AM   #71
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It's crazy how much the above still works when you swap out illegal immigrants with guns.
So long as it does not prevent a responsible US citizen from owning a gun, you go ahead and do whatever you'd like to reduce the number of guns in the US population.
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Old 02-16-2018, 11:36 AM   #72
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Banana clip max 5 bullets only
Bullets cost $20 piece.

If I rule the world, it would be so peaceful. I'll make ammo so expensive.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:49 AM   #73
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Indianapolis is a sanctuary city?
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