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Old 08-14-2018, 10:16 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Peties Army View Post
Best part of this video? Itís 2-0 two outs runners on base in the 9th and the SP is still pitching. (Iím assuming itís the SP, it is Glavine)

Ok catch was very good too
Pitchers today like most people are wusses
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:17 AM   #77
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agree, but shortstop and second were different kinda positions back then.....would ozzie even make a mlb roster in this day and age? I dont believe he would...no power, didnt even hit for average.....defense? lol....that gets ya a 2 dollar bowman draft auto
Look at Smithís career after time in SD. he was a very solid hitter. I get thatís not your point but with way we are valuing D now, he would be a regular major league SAS today
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:18 AM   #78
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That's just it. An average player doesn't play for 19 years. Ozzie was exceptional.
I donít know see Nick Markakis
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:20 AM   #79
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And Edmonds was 7 away.
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:27 AM   #80
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I’m not sure he gets in but he was just a good defender, case could be made he was best at all time, over every player at every postion.

And it wasn’t like was a Complete waste with the bat after leaving ATL. Never had crazy power numbers but was certainly playable. Didn’t play a ton however.

His issue is sigma is “After turning 30 he was done as player”. It isn’t 100% true but it sticks with him

I’ve also said he is the reason Edmonds didn’t at least stay on the ballot for a few years. Whole Edmonds was certainly good to elite at times with his bat his main calling card was his gloves but he was never the best CF during his career. First few years JR was much better and then Jones was one of the best of all time.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:07 PM   #81
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Iím not sure he gets in but he was just a good defender, case could be made he was best at all time, over every player at every postion.

And it wasnít like was a Complete waste with the bat after leaving ATL. Never had crazy power numbers but was certainly playable. Didnít play a ton however.

His issue is sigma is ďAfter turning 30 he was done as playerĒ. It isnít 100% true but it sticks with him

Iíve also said he is the reason Edmonds didnít at least stay on the ballot for a few years. Whole Edmonds was certainly good to elite at times with his bat his main calling card was his gloves but he was never the best CF during his career. First few years JR was much better and then Jones was one of the best of all time.
I know his career after 30 is what sticks out to people, but I would encourage people to not view it as a matter of pure longevity or what he was able to do until he decided to call it quits. Instead just look at the body of his work over the course of his career. If you just look at his accumulated stats and value, both offensively and defensively, and ignore what period of time in his career he produced best, then to me it's a no-brainer.

And how the voters gave Vizquel 37% while only giving Andruw 7.3% is baffling.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #82
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Iím not sure he gets in but he was just a good defender, case could be made he was best at all time, over every player at every postion.

And it wasnít like was a Complete waste with the bat after leaving ATL. Never had crazy power numbers but was certainly playable. Didnít play a ton however.

His issue is sigma is ďAfter turning 30 he was done as playerĒ. It isnít 100% true but it sticks with him

Iíve also said he is the reason Edmonds didnít at least stay on the ballot for a few years. Whole Edmonds was certainly good to elite at times with his bat his main calling card was his gloves but he was never the best CF during his career. First few years JR was much better and then Jones was one of the best of all time.
my issue with this outlook on him is he started at 19...and was full time at 20...while this is more common now...20yrs ago it was not and most guys werent starting until what? 23-24 range i feel like...even 22

so he still has a 10yr window of damn elite Defense and some big counting numbers in the HR category..."he sucked after 30"...ok? so what?

its not worse than a guy like Mccutchen for instance...was not full time until 22/23...by age 27/28 most people said "oh he is gonna be a HOFer"...he hasnt been any good since age 29...so his window was only like 5-6yrs of being a good player...

Andruw from 20-30 put up 61WAR...that is basically his career number as well...but still...61WAR in 11yrs is a big ass number

60+ WAR
10x GG-considered an all time great defensive player
425+ HRs
1200+ runs/rbis
150+ SBs

to me he should be in and will probably get in down the road is my guess
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #83
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I know his career after 30 is what sticks out to people, but I would encourage people to not view it as a matter of pure longevity or what he was able to do until he decided to call it quits. Instead just look at the body of his work over the course of his career. If you just look at his accumulated stats and value, both offensively and defensively, and ignore what period of time in his career he produced best, then to me it's a no-brainer.

And how the voters gave Vizquel 37% while only giving Andruw 7.3% is baffling.
Agreed.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:43 PM   #84
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Iím not sure he gets in but he was just a good defender, case could be made he was best at all time, over every player at every postion.

And it wasnít like was a Complete waste with the bat after leaving ATL. Never had crazy power numbers but was certainly playable. Didnít play a ton however.

His issue is sigma is ďAfter turning 30 he was done as playerĒ. It isnít 100% true but it sticks with him

Iíve also said he is the reason Edmonds didnít at least stay on the ballot for a few years. Whole Edmonds was certainly good to elite at times with his bat his main calling card was his gloves but he was never the best CF during his career. First few years JR was much better and then Jones was one of the best of all time.
Andrew was better in 10 years than Edmonds was in 16 though.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:50 PM   #85
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His gap over Mays as the best defensive center fielder of all time is the second largest gap of any position between the #1 and #2 guys. The only bigger gap is Brooks Robinson over Adrian Beltre at 3B.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes. Mazeroski got in after a long wait based on a rep as the greatest defensive 2B ever when he's actually probably 4th or 5th best all time and 1 remarkable home run. Jones should have been first ballot but he'll have to wait awhile I'm guessing.
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:54 PM   #86
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Andrew was better in 10 years than Edmonds was in 16 though.
I know. I wasnít saying Edmonds should be in over it just saying thatís why he wasnít even really considered.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:01 PM   #87
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my issue with this outlook on him is he started at 19...and was full time at 20...while this is more common now...20yrs ago it was not and most guys werent starting until what? 23-24 range i feel like...even 22
That's an interesting point. I wonder how people would feel if he played from ages 25-41 and his downturn happened at 36. I don't think he has the 'look' on paper that voters want to see, but I still think he'll get in via the modern committee at some point.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:44 PM   #88
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And Edmonds was 7 away.
McGriff was 7 away from 500 and doesnít sniff induction
393 ainít 400
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:47 PM   #89
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McGriff was 7 away from 500 and doesnít sniff induction
393 ainít 400
If you actually read the post I quoted in that post you will see why I said that but hey, why wait to actually figure out what was being said?
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:58 PM   #90
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If you actually read the post I quoted in that post you will see why I said that but hey, why wait to actually figure out what was being said?
I did. And it still stands that Edmonds isnít on the list with those guys because he didnít hit 400
Similar to the fact that if McGriff has hit 7 more heíd be in the Hall but instead never garnered 24% of the vote
Apparently 7 home runs can be worth about 50 percentage points on a ballot
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:06 PM   #91
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I did. And it still stands that Edmonds isnít on the list with those guys because he didnít hit 400
Similar to the fact that if McGriff has hit 7 more heíd be in the Hall but instead never garnered 24% of the vote
Apparently 7 home runs can be worth about 50 percentage points on a ballot


We were specifically talking about CFs,Mcgriff had nothing to do with anything. But you read it so you already knew that.

So why did you bring up Mcgriff?
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:12 PM   #92
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We were specifically talking about CFs,Mcgriff had nothing to do with anything. But you read it so you already knew that.

So why did you bring up Mcgriff?
Because itís the exact number he needed for a milestone
You say only 7 but clearly 7 is a big deal because itís been shown in another instance as being so
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:14 PM   #93
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Because itís the exact number he needed for a milestone
You say only 7 but clearly 7 is a big deal because itís been shown in another instance as being so
You clearly didnít read the thread.

Itís ok.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:15 PM   #94
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His gap over Mays as the best defensive center fielder of all time is the second largest gap of any position between the #1 and #2 guys. The only bigger gap is Brooks Robinson over Adrian Beltre at 3B.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes. Mazeroski got in after a long wait based on a rep as the greatest defensive 2B ever when he's actually probably 4th or 5th best all time and 1 remarkable home run. Jones should have been first ballot but he'll have to wait awhile I'm guessing.
Bill James said Mazeroski was the best defensive player regardless of position. I am not sure who you think was better a 2b, but no. Maz is #1 in TZR at 2b by a wide margin.

Jones is the best defensive C.F. of all time. That with pretty good offense will get him in one day. Vizquel is a joke. He saved fewer runs than Max, despite the extra chances he got at SS. Troy Tulowitski is better than Vizquel. How he got so many votes is a mystery.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:18 PM   #95
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You clearly didnít read the thread.

Itís ok.
Itís ok that you donít understand. Apologies if itís confusing what Iím trying to convey.

Read the thread. About a page too long because you donít understand the multi-quote feature.

Itís ok.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:36 PM   #96
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It’s ok that you don’t understand. Apologies if it’s confusing what I’m trying to convey.

Read the thread. About a page too long because you don’t understand the multi-quote feature.

It’s ok.
The internet, where you never have to admit youre wrong!
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Last edited by Peties Army; 08-15-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:50 PM   #97
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The internet, where you never have to admit youre wrong!
Help me understand what I said that is wrong.
Iím truly confused
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:00 PM   #98
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Help me understand what I said that is wrong.
Iím truly confused
You sure are!
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:07 PM   #99
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You sure are!
Great rebuttal to an honest request.
Par for your posts

Iím out. Enjoy.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:12 PM   #100
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Great rebuttal to an honest request.
Par for your posts

Iím out. Enjoy.
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