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Old 08-15-2018, 04:18 PM   #101
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Bill James said Mazeroski was the best defensive player regardless of position. I am not sure who you think was better a 2b, but no. Maz is #1 in TZR at 2b by a wide margin.

Jones is the best defensive C.F. of all time. That with pretty good offense will get him in one day. Vizquel is a joke. He saved fewer runs than Max, despite the extra chances he got at SS. Troy Tulowitski is better than Vizquel. How he got so many votes is a mystery.
Good for Bill James. Mazeroski is in the top 5 but he's not the clear cut #1 by any means.

Joe Gordon put up more 10% more defensive value in 80% of the innings Maz had. Rey Sanchez put up equal value in 62% of the innings. Placido Polanco put up 80% of the value in 80% of Maz's innings so they're about equal on a rate basis. I can go on. There are several guys who have been just as good or better than Mazeroski defensively.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:25 PM   #102
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Good for Bill James. Mazeroski is in the top 5 but he's not the clear cut #1 by any means.

Joe Gordon put up more 10% more defensive value in 80% of the innings Maz had. Rey Sanchez put up equal value in 62% of the innings. Placido Polanco put up 80% of the value in 80% of Maz's innings so they're about equal on a rate basis. I can go on. There are several guys who have been just as good or better than Mazeroski defensively.
Mazeroski saved more runs than Sanchez despite Sanchez playing more than twice as many games at SS. Not a 2B when you play most of your games at another position. Mazeroski saved more than 2 times the runs of Polanco, I'm not sure with how you came up with him. You must hate advanced metrics. At least you could have argued Frank White or Willie Randolph. Lol. I will trust Bill James over some random person on the internet.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #103
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I can't believe Jones is only 41 years old. Seems like he's been out of baseball forever. If he could have stuck around a few more years, he would have been a no doubter HOFer.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:07 PM   #104
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That list is great, but two of those players hit over 600 homeruns and it's missing Mickey Mantle and Duke Snider. Also Beltran just missed 75%, and Murphy and Edmonds both missed "400" by less than 8 HRs.
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And Edmonds was 7 away.
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If you actually read the post I quoted in that post you will see why I said that but hey, why wait to actually figure out what was being said?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:08 PM   #105
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I donít know see Nick Markakis
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:16 PM   #106
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Difference was the post I quoted was before your post. He just glanced through it, saw my comment and posted, not reading any context
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:22 PM   #107
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Another hall of good category
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:27 PM   #108
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If the consensus is that Jones was THAT good defensively, how should his HOF resume be viewed as opposed to a guy like Ozzie Smith?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:30 PM   #109
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If the consensus is that Jones was THAT good defensively, how should his HOF resume be viewed as opposed to a guy like Ozzie Smith?
Well his OPS+... just kidding.

Read through the topic itís pretty good lots of good points. This is discussed
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:32 PM   #110
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Well his OPS+... just kidding.

Read through the topic itís pretty good lots of good points. This is discussed
Haha. I was looking thru Ozzie's stats and saw the OPS+. Had a little chuckle.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:34 PM   #111
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Haha. I was looking thru Ozzie's stats and saw the OPS+. Had a little chuckle.
My take is this is a good debate to have. The question with jones is does 10 years of elite play being done so early? Thatís a good convo
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:38 PM   #112
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My take is this is a good debate to have. The question with jones is does 10 years of elite play being done so early? Thatís a good convo
I think so. That's a long time.

Being done as far as anything close to a HOF-type year by age 30 isn't a great look, but he came up so early.

If he would have come up at 24, been pretty much done by 35, and hung around until he was 40.. would/should that have made a difference?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:40 PM   #113
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is Andruw Black?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:41 PM   #114
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is Andruw Black?
Keep it in the Acuna thread.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:44 PM   #115
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He hit .275 or higher a whopping 3 times. Kingman esque!


So no. Although a borderline case for sure.

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Old 08-15-2018, 09:54 PM   #116
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He hit .275 or higher a whopping 3 times. Kingman esque!


So no. Although a borderline case for sure.

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Old 08-16-2018, 12:41 AM   #117
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Difference was the post I quoted was before your post. He just glanced through it, saw my comment and posted, not reading any context
No, the difference is I can never pass up an opportunity for a good Maggie Smith gif.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:53 AM   #118
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If the consensus is that Jones was THAT good defensively, how should his HOF resume be viewed as opposed to a guy like Ozzie Smith?
The problem with the comparison is Ozzie was a great defender his entire career. Even at the age of 39, Ozzie was one of the best SS in the game. Jonesí defense was also done by 30.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:03 AM   #119
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The problem with the comparison is Ozzie was a great defender his entire career. Even at the age of 39, Ozzie was one of the best SS in the game. Jonesí defense was also done by 30.
That's a good point.

But on the other side, the argument could be made that Jones at the plate was was more valuable than Ozzie at the plate. And then add that to Jones' defense.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:07 AM   #120
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That's a good point.

But on the other side, the argument could be made that Jones at the plate was was more valuable than Ozzie at the plate. And then add that to Jones' defense.
Thanks. I would put Jones in.

Iíll disagree on value at the plate. While Jonesí best offensive year (2000 or 2005) at the plate was slightly better than the Wizardís best, Ozzie had more good offensive seasons. While Ozzie had no power, he was a prolific base-stealer with a high success rate (~80%) and rarely struckout.

I view WAR as a flawed, overused metric, but it serves a good purpose in this case as it provides a way to compare two vastly different offensive styles. Hereís a comparison of the oWAR:

Andruw Jones oWAR: 39.9 (2.3/season average), Ozzie Smith oWAR: 48.8 (2.6/season average)

All that being said, I still like the premise that the greatest defender at an important defensive position merits consideration. It definitely strengthens Jonesí case. But there are at least 3 or 4 others Iíd consider based on their defense before getting to Jones. (Grich, White, Randolph, and maybe Rolen)
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:30 PM   #121
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Thanks. I would put Jones in.

I’ll disagree on value at the plate. While Jones’ best offensive year (2000 or 2005) at the plate was slightly better than the Wizard’s best, Ozzie had more good offensive seasons. While Ozzie had no power, he was a prolific base-stealer with a high success rate (~80%) and rarely struckout.

I view WAR as a flawed, overused metric, but it serves a good purpose in this case as it provides a way to compare two vastly different offensive styles. Here’s a comparison of the oWAR:

Andruw Jones oWAR: 39.9 (2.3/season average), Ozzie Smith oWAR: 48.8 (2.6/season average)

All that being said, I still like the premise that the greatest defender at an important defensive position merits consideration. It definitely strengthens Jones’ case. But there are at least 3 or 4 others I’d consider based on their defense before getting to Jones. (Grich, White, Randolph, and maybe Rolen)
I don't have a problem with Ozzie getting in. In fact I think he should have just like I think Andruw should. Both are considered the best defenders at their position of all-time, by a compilation of defensive value over their career and not just for a short burst, and both were career above league average offensively.

On the flip side you have Thome as a 1st ballot HOF because hit certain milestones offensively that have become a "lock" for the HOF but who was an average to below average defender for his career and worth only 2 more total WAR for his career than Jones. I'm not arguing Thome shouldn't be in, I'm just pointing out that Jones should be and it shouldn't really be much of a question.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:37 PM   #122
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The man hit 400 HR's, had 1200 RBI's, and played CF as well as or better than anyone else in the history of the game. He's a HOF'er. End of story.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:50 PM   #123
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The man hit 400 HR's, had 1200 RBI's, and played CF as well as or better than anyone else in the history of the game. He's a HOF'er. End of story.
the more and more it is discussed the stronger i agree...its actually kinda a shame that he isnt in or that he got so little of the vote...i know the ballot is backlogged a bit and people are still trying to push bonds/clemens and others...which is understandable to me...but damn...just that little post about sums it up really...

400hr
1200+ runs and rbis
10GG and pretty much the consensus best ever at a premier defensive position

how is it a no??
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:00 PM   #124
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I still think he'd have gotten a lot more votes if A) his career & decline started at later ages or B) he had to retire early like Puckett. The optics of him being a replacement level player by age 30 is the reason he got 7% last time.

I fully expect the number to go up each time, and if he doesn't make it by year 10, the modern committee will put him in.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:22 PM   #125
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Thinking about Andruw Jones' fitness level while playing makes me appreciate LeBron James work ethic. Jones let himself go.
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