Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[6celtics33]

Jason... you’re right about Pop and the system but none of that works without your best player setting the example. Look at their situation now. They still have a top 5 player yet they are looking more and more like the run is over. Pop and the system are still there.

Who isn’t there? TD

[MJGOAT23]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Nobody will ever agree so it's moot, but if you are putting players from any era in today's NBA you wouldn't think they are so good (barring a few).

Bill Russell is an obvious All-Time Great, but if he was a RC in 2012 and playing currently he would be an after thought in today's game. So while you can pay homage to the stars of the past, few if any would hold up. Their bodies and the level of competition today has so far surpassed anything from even the 80s. It's the same sport, but played by far greater athletes. The average player in today's NBA would start on almost every NBA team from the 80's and prior. The Warriors of today could quite possibly go undefeated vs the 8 teams that played during the 1960-61 season.

Bill Russell is a career 15/22 guy. You can forget about 22 rebounds from the jump, it's not happening. So now we're watching Russell in an NBA that doesn't regard big men, which has multiple positions vying for rebounds, and in an NBA that's so far beyond what athletes in the 1960's were doing it wouldn't be fair to those players from yesteryear.

Basically, I just think we need to rank players across era's and not on an all-time list.

what this argument is missing is that guys like Russell from the past were also world class athletes at their core so if you "dropped them in today's game" they would also be afforded the same diet, training and knowledge and I think would flourish just the same. I think they'd adapt and be great.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I want everyone who supports the idea that Lebron is so strong to really think about that the next time he gets a hard foul and lays on the ground for 5 minutes like he’s dead. Maybe his body is strong and his mind is feeble. I have no clue. And every time someone tells you MJ is only better because he never lost in the finals think about this...


MJ 5 MVP’s Lebron 4
MJ 6 Finals MVP’s Lebron 3
MJ 24-11 Finals record Lebron 18-27
MJ 10 scoring titles Lebron 1
MJ Def POY 88 Lebron n/a
MJ 9 1st Team All Defense Lebron 5
MJ 30.1 ppg NBA record
MJ 33.4 playoffs ppg NBA record
MJ 63 against Boston playoff record
MJ 41ppg against Phoenix. Finals record

So will Lebron pass his counting numbers? Yes Lebron is more durable. But who has done more with the time they were given? Not even a question.

All fair points. Speaking of points, While MJ has plenty of scoring records, his scoring hasn’t been anywhere close to efficient as Lebron. As I pointed out, Lebron has higher career FG, 2P, and 3P percentages. Check out below

Lebron - 22383 FGM - 31038 FGA. 1.386 points per shot
Jordan - 24537 FGM -32292 FGA. 1.316 points per shot.

Jordan has taken (in the same amount of seasons) 2154 more shots than Lebron. If Lebron had taken that many shots in his first 15 years he would have had 2985 more total points (assuming he stays at 1.386 points per shot), giving him 34,023 which would put him at 3rd all time. Like you said, MJs counting numbers in 15 seasons are greater but on aggregate they’re just numbers. Lebron plays the way MJ did in the first 15 and all of those individual numbers for Lebron are likely higher.

The same way we knock Kobe for being a chunker (and it’s fair), we could knock MJ too a lesser extent. Kobe’s the oldest player to score 60. That goes into the record book, but we all saw that game.

What’s crazy to me is in most people’s Top-10 they have both MJ and Magic, yet a lot of people have Lebron behind both of them. MJ didn’t have Magic’s skill set, nor did Magic have MJ’s skill set. Lebron has BOTH of their skill sets.

MJ does have one thing that Lebron doesn’t, and that’s the rings and flawless finals record. I have no problem when people knock Lebron that, it’s fair. I don’t think that makes him any less of a basketball player though.

[MJGOAT23]

Forget all the stats and comparing accumulated accolades. While Lebron has achieved immensely, and even exceeded the ridiculous amount of pressure and hype he had as an 18 year old, and has even started evolving into a more cut throat end of game closer, the bottom line is the eye test and will to win.

MJ would never have uttered "its only basketball" after a pathetic playoff loss and no-show performance. In a hypothetical game 7 and supporting teammates canceling each other out (i.e. MJ has Pip/Grant or Rodman, LBJ has Bosh + Wade) with MJ + LBJ in their primes...do you really think MJ would lose that game? There is your answer people.

https://twitter.com/HistoryJumpman/s...96835766951937

Watch till the end. There's is NO WAY Lebron overcomes the fire burning inside Prime MJ.

[MJGOAT23]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

All fair points. Speaking of points, While MJ has plenty of scoring records, his scoring hasn’t been anywhere close to efficient as Lebron. As I pointed out, Lebron has higher career FG, 2P, and 3P percentages. Check out below

Lebron - 22383 FGM - 31038 FGA. 1.386 points per shot
Jordan - 24537 FGM -32292 FGA. 1.316 points per shot.

Jordan has taken (in the same amount of seasons) 2154 more shots than Lebron. If Lebron had taken that many shots in his first 15 years he would have had 2985 more total points (assuming he stays at 1.386 points per shot), giving him 34,023 which would put him at 3rd all time. Like you said, MJs counting numbers in 15 seasons are greater but on aggregate they’re just numbers. Lebron plays the way MJ did in the first 15 and all of those individual numbers for Lebron are likely higher.

The same way we knock Kobe for being a chunker (and it’s fair), we could knock MJ too a lesser extent. Kobe’s the oldest player to score 60. That goes into the record book, but we all saw that game.

What’s crazy to me is in most people’s Top-10 they have both MJ and Magic, yet a lot of people have Lebron behind both of them. MJ didn’t have Magic’s skill set, nor did Magic have MJ’s skill set. Lebron has BOTH of their skill sets.

MJ does have one thing that Lebron doesn’t, and that’s the rings and flawless finals record. I have no problem when people knock Lebron that, it’s fair. I don’t think that makes him any less of a basketball player though.

not quite. MJ's offensive game was light years more polished than Lebron's bully ball. I dont knock Lebron for using his gifts to best advantage, he should!! but to say he had Michael's grace, agility and offensive repertoire is laughable. I am old enough to have witnessed the entirety of their careers.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

Forget all the stats and comparing accumulated accolades. While Lebron has achieved immensely, and even exceeded the ridiculous amount of pressure and hype he had as an 18 year old, and has even started evolving into a more cut throat end of game closer, the bottom line is the eye test and will to win.

MJ would never have uttered "its only basketball" after a pathetic playoff loss and no-show performance. In a hypothetical game 7 and supporting teammates canceling each other out (i.e. MJ has Pip/Grant or Rodman, LBJ has Bosh + Wade) with MJ + LBJ in their primes...do you really think MJ would lose that game? There is your answer people.

https://twitter.com/HistoryJumpman/s...96835766951937

Watch till the end. There's is NO WAY Lebron overcomes the fire burning inside Prime MJ.

That’s subjective. You can’t see in these players hearts and heads.

MJ walked away from the game to play baseball. Was his fire for basketball any less because of it? No.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

That’s subjective. You can’t see in these players hearts and heads.

MJ walked away from the game to play baseball. Was his fire for basketball any less because of it? No.

Yes, that is exactly what he said. When I lose the motivation to prove something it’s time to walk away from the game.

He kept coming back for more but that chip on his shoulder is what drove him.

Lebron did say “it’s just basketball.” He said that after losing to Dallas and choking.

This is all fact.

[6celtics33]

Geechquest when you say Jordan hasn’t been anywhere close to efficient as Lebron what do you mean?

Isn’t fg% and 3p% within 1 %?
Isn’t Jordans per higher?
Isn’t Jordan a better free throw shooter by a wide margin or is there some new free throw stat that claims otherwise?

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Yes, that is exactly what he said. When I lose the motivation to prove something it’s time to walk away from the game.

He kept coming back for more but that chip on his shoulder is what drove him.

Lebron did say “it’s just basketball.” He said that after losing to Dallas and choking.

This is all fact.

The bolded above is not a fact by any definition of the word.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Geechquest when you say Jordan hasn’t been anywhere close to efficient as Lebron what do you mean?

Isn’t fg% and 3p% within 1 %?
Isn’t Jordans per higher?
Isn’t Jordan a better free throw shooter by a wide margin or is there some new free throw stat that claims otherwise?

It really shocks me that Jordan has as high of a fg% as he does, considering how difficult a lot of his shots were. How many games did Jordan have like lebron just had in game 2 with all of the well-defended fade-aways??? That game for lebron was jordan-esque, but Jordan had games like that quite often. I really do think people forget a lot of stuff MJ did, which is sad, but understandable since we are seeing the "here and now" and just have to try to remember the "then."

[6celtics33]

Jordan never averaged less than 40% in the finals
Lebron did it twice

87-92 Jordan had 5 straight seasons of at least 51% fg
Lebron hasn’t ever done that

Lowest ft% MJ ever shot is 78% for a season
Lebron’s highest is 78%

MJ has a higher playoff per

MJ is the only player to lead the league in scoring and win the title more than once in the same year. He did it 6 times

Only player to win scoring title and defensive poy at the same time

And speaking of all around brilliance

MJ is the only player to average 30-6-5 and 2 steals and he did it 7 times

Nobody else did it once

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

You know full well the downside of Lebron. Kobe is out of the question for me. But as far as Duncan goes, it’s all upside. So maybe people recognize the upside of Lebron being higher than Duncan but would rather have Duncan due to the downside of Lebron in the overall scheme of things.

Yea, I know the downside of LeBron which is why Duncan isn't too far-fetched. I think a lot of it really has to do with the team environment and coaching, FO etc.. that Duncan had his whole career.

Duncan was never as dominant as LeBron and most likely wouldn't have had nearly the same amount of success had his team situation been different but it's really impossible to speculate.

There is absolutely no objective, rational argument that can be made for putting Kobe over LeBron unless the only thing that matters is the number of rings (which I think is a really stupid argument)

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

The bolded above is not a fact by any definition of the word.

What do you mean? He didn’t say those things?

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Yea, I know the downside of LeBron which is why Duncan isn't too far-fetched. I think a lot of it really has to do with the team environment and coaching, FO etc.. that Duncan had his whole career.

Duncan was never as dominant as LeBron and most likely wouldn't have had nearly the same amount of success had his team situation been different but it's really impossible to speculate.

There is absolutely no objective, rational argument that can be made for putting Kobe over LeBron unless the only thing that matters is the number of rings (which I think is a really stupid argument)

I don’t disagree. I think Kobe is the most overrated ever.

[GC1980]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Geechquest when you say Jordan hasn’t been anywhere close to efficient as Lebron what do you mean?

Isn’t fg% and 3p% within 1 %?
Isn’t Jordans per higher?
Isn’t Jordan a better free throw shooter by a wide margin or is there some new free throw stat that claims otherwise?

They are about the same FG% as well despite the much more physical play of the 80’s and 90’s. To say Jordan wasn’t anywhere close to as efficient is beyond hyperbolic. MJ took more shots as a result of having a different role on a different roster in a different era. Saying Lebron would have scored more points if he took more shots is like saying MJ would have averaged more assists if he played more point guard. Different responsibilities. One thing that isn’t up for debate is how much better of a defender Jordan was. I see a lot of focus on scoring but MJ was way more than just a scorer. He was as complete a player as anyone to play the game.

As for the comment that Lebron has Magic and Jordan’s skill set, that I disagree with. Lebron is a hell of a passer but I think some people make that comparison while forgetting just how insane magic was leading an offense. No knock on LBJ but there has never been and may never be a player that could run an offense and pass like Magic. Just because A player is tá ll and can pass very well doesn’t make him Magic lol.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

What do you mean? He didn’t say those things?

Lol I was wondering the same thing. Here is the full quote.

"When I lose the sense of motivation and the sense to prove something as a basketball player, it's time for me to move away from the game."

Pretty much what you said lol

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

It really shocks me that Jordan has as high of a fg% as he does, considering how difficult a lot of his shots were. How many games did Jordan have like lebron just had in game 2 with all of the well-defended fade-aways??? That game for lebron was jordan-esque, but Jordan had games like that quite often. I really do think people forget a lot of stuff MJ did, which is sad, but understandable since we are seeing the "here and now" and just have to try to remember the "then."

Right. I think Lebron has 4 40 point playoff games this post season which brings his total to 22 I believe maybe 23

Jordan has almost twice that many. The difference in 1st and 2nd by almost double. That’s insane.

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Jason... you’re right about Pop and the system but none of that works without your best player setting the example. Look at their situation now. They still have a top 5 player yet they are looking more and more like the run is over. Pop and the system are still there.

Who isn’t there? TD

Remember, San Antonio was running the floors on Golden State at the Oracle in game 1.....with Kawhi and company.....until a crap move by Zaza took him out.

Leonard played 9 games this year, Parker and Manu are 1 foot into retirement. Yes, the system is still there, without their top 5 player all but 9 games, they finished 12 games over .500 and made it to the playoffs yet again, in the wildly tough western conference.

If he returns next season at full strength and the off the court drama isn't there, it will be very interesting to see what this team does, replacing Parker and Manu, and TD a couple seasons removed.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Right. I think Lebron has 4 40 point playoff games this post season which brings his total to 22 I believe maybe 23

Jordan has almost twice that many. The difference in 1st and 2nd by almost double. That’s insane.

Despite lebron already playing in 47 more playoff games. Not that scoring is the only thing to be impressed by, but people are making what lebron has done in these playoffs seem like something that has never been done before. People just forget. Very nice run though so far by lebron. Would be impressive if he capped it off with a title.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

Remember, San Antonio was running the floors on Golden State at the Oracle in game 1.....with Kawhi and company.....until a crap move by Zaza took him out.

Leonard played 9 games this year, Parker and Manu are 1 foot into retirement. Yes, the system is still there, without their top 5 player all but 9 games, they finished 12 games over .500 and made it to the playoffs yet again, in the wildly tough western conference.

If he returns next season at full strength and the off the court drama isn't there, it will be very interesting to see what this team does, replacing Parker and Manu, and TD a couple seasons removed.

I do remember and I agree. Kawhi is a machine. All of these great players are great players. I’m just talking about the positive contributions of a superstar with their head on straight for 20 years vs like Kawhi now with his group in his ear. I’d love for it to all be a misunderstanding and they fix it and they’re great again.

If you lose the what if’s though what you’re left with is

Spurs before and after Duncan 0 titles
During Duncan 6 trips 5-1 record

He needs to get some of the credit for that. I know you acknowledge he’s great. But for instance, how different do you think it is if we plug KG into his career?

I think 6 Finals turns into maybe 2

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Geechquest when you say Jordan hasn’t been anywhere close to efficient as Lebron what do you mean?

Isn’t fg% and 3p% within 1 %?
Isn’t Jordans per higher?
Isn’t Jordan a better free throw shooter by a wide margin or is there some new free throw stat that claims otherwise?

I mean Jordan scores less points per shot while assisting others in scoring 2 fewer times per game. For every 100 shots both take Lebron outscores MJ by 7 points.

In 15 seasons MJ has ourscored Lebron by 2.6ppg while outshooting him by 2.3 shots per game.

When you factor in the the assists I think it puts Lebron as an overall better offensive player.

When you teach a kid to play basketball you first teach them to Shoot (Score), Pass, and Dribble. Lebron is more efficient in the Shooting (Scoring) category, he’s a better passer, and we can’t quantify dribbling so I’d say it’s a wash. So 2 of the 3 offensive categories Lebron outshines MJ (although scoring is based on efficiency as opposed to total numbers for now).

It’s just splitting hairs honestly. I don’t care if people have Jordan higher. It’s really personal preference. I’d take the guy who’s 2 inches taller with 50 more lbs of muscle that can score more points on the same amount of shots and dish out more assists. That makes sense to me, but I understand why others take MJ.

Yes, MJ is a better free throw shooter (and it’s not even close). I think that’s a bigger knock on LeBrons game than anything else.

[6celtics33]

The only actual time not based on projection but based on reality where Lebron took on extra workload and shot more that I know of was in the 2015 finals and he put up great numbers but shot less than 40% from the field and less than 70% from the free throw line.

Not very efficient so I don’t know how we can say with a surety that if he..... this would happen

What has happened is what did happen

[CoolG]

36 votes for #1
Lol
this must be votes from people under the age of 35

[Round Mound]

Can we all agree that what LeBron is doing has not been seen in a "couple" of years? Should the media only talk about what it used to be, back when the NBA rosters were full of those wonderful, skilled, physical players () from 1-15 in each roster? Or can we just enjoy the performances from THIS YEAR's PLAYOFFS?

Jordan would have done this, Russell would have done that, Wilt would have done that, etc. Who's to say that, in a different era, LeBron wouldn't have done differently, too?

[seabass97166]

4th with the arrow pointing up