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Old 09-27-2013, 05:50 PM   #126
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I pay attention; the time he does decent is when he pays attention to the pocket collapsing and he scrambles other than that it will a sack or an incomplete or a check down
In 2 full seasons of playing, Ponder has been sacked 62 times. That's ridiculous. Those not counting all the times he has been knocked down but got the throw off. The line has been terrible for pass protection since Ponder came into the league. If you watched him play last season, all of his good games were when the line actually gave him time in the pocket. And don't even get me started on his rookie season, as he wa throwing on the run 95% because of no line. So I honestly don't think you pay attention to the game, because if you did, you'd see these things
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:31 PM   #127
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lets go Cassel!!! show em what u got buddy.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:12 PM   #128
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In 2 full seasons of playing, Ponder has been sacked 62 times. That's ridiculous. Those not counting all the times he has been knocked down but got the throw off. The line has been terrible for pass protection since Ponder came into the league. If you watched him play last season, all of his good games were when the line actually gave him time in the pocket. And don't even get me started on his rookie season, as he wa throwing on the run 95% because of no line. So I honestly don't think you pay attention to the game, because if you did, you'd see these things
Sack count of QB's over the last 2 seasons of play:

Aaron Rodgers - 87
Philip Rivers - 79
Mark Sanchez - 73
Tony Romo - 72
Sam Bradford - 71
Cam Newton - 71
Andy Dalton - 70
Ben Roethlisberger - 70
Joe Flacco - 66
Matt Stafford - 65
Christian Ponder - 62
Jay Cutler - 61
Tom Brady - 59
Josh Freeman - 55
Matt Ryan - 54
Ryan Fitzpatrick - 52
Michael Vick - 51
Eli Manning - 47
Matt Schaub - 43
Peyton Manning - 37 (2010 + 2012)
Drew Brees - 36


He falls right in the middle of the pack. Most of those guys around him run for their lives to make plays. They also don't have the luxury of AP lining up behind them.



In the best games he had in 2012 (I'll say 8 games of decent play) he was sacked 17 times. In those 8 games, he completed 67% of his passes and had 2,029 passing yards. He also had 14 passing touchdowns and only 5 interceptions.

In the 8 poor games, Ponder mustered 906 yards of passing. He went from averaging nearly 254 yards per game in his best games to 114 in his worst. His completion percentage dropped to 55.3%. He threw 4 touchdowns, but also threw 7 interceptions. He was only sacked 15 times in those 8 games.



What we have learned here from the statistics laid out throughout this thread? Just as many QB's are getting sacked and receiving pressure. Ponder falls to the middle of the pack in sacks, but was in the top 12 of time to throw. 19 other QB's were sacked more than Ponder per drop back. This is with 10 guys in the box ready to stop Adrian Peterson. As I mentioned in my last post, he is significantly worse with more time to throw the football. Only Blaine Gabbert had a worse yards per attempt average than Ponder out of the top 32 QB's in 2012. He was 30th out of 34 QB's in 2011. He is getting just as much pressure as half of the QB's in the league. They don't have the best running back around.

If Christian Ponder can't start playing more consistently and completing more 15+ yard throws, the Vikings are going to go nowhere. They are simply wasting the prime of AP's career by being unable to move defenders out of the box. We can blame the O-line all day long for being unable to open up holes for AP, but they are facing 9-10 men in the box on every play. You can't continue to run the ball against teams like that. NFL defensive coordinators have a full season of tape with AP running at his best and Christian Ponder behind center. There is a reason why AP is running into a brick wall and defenses are not concerned about Ponder beating them with his arm. At this point, it is a very simple life as a defensive coordinator going against the Vikings - if you stop AP, you stop the Vikings.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:57 PM   #129
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Sack count of QB's over the last 2 seasons of play:

Aaron Rodgers - 87
Philip Rivers - 79
Mark Sanchez - 73
Tony Romo - 72
Sam Bradford - 71
Cam Newton - 71
Andy Dalton - 70
Ben Roethlisberger - 70
Joe Flacco - 66
Matt Stafford - 65
Christian Ponder - 62
Jay Cutler - 61
Tom Brady - 59
Josh Freeman - 55
Matt Ryan - 54
Ryan Fitzpatrick - 52
Michael Vick - 51
Eli Manning - 47
Matt Schaub - 43
Peyton Manning - 37 (2010 + 2012)
Drew Brees - 36


He falls right in the middle of the pack. Most of those guys around him run for their lives to make plays. They also don't have the luxury of AP lining up behind them.



In the best games he had in 2012 (I'll say 8 games of decent play) he was sacked 17 times. In those 8 games, he completed 67% of his passes and had 2,029 passing yards. He also had 14 passing touchdowns and only 5 interceptions.

In the 8 poor games, Ponder mustered 906 yards of passing. He went from averaging nearly 254 yards per game in his best games to 114 in his worst. His completion percentage dropped to 55.3%. He threw 4 touchdowns, but also threw 7 interceptions. He was only sacked 15 times in those 8 games.



What we have learned here from the statistics laid out throughout this thread? Just as many QB's are getting sacked and receiving pressure. Ponder falls to the middle of the pack in sacks, but was in the top 12 of time to throw. 19 other QB's were sacked more than Ponder per drop back. This is with 10 guys in the box ready to stop Adrian Peterson. As I mentioned in my last post, he is significantly worse with more time to throw the football. Only Blaine Gabbert had a worse yards per attempt average than Ponder out of the top 32 QB's in 2012. He was 30th out of 34 QB's in 2011. He is getting just as much pressure as half of the QB's in the league. They don't have the best running back around.

If Christian Ponder can't start playing more consistently and completing more 15+ yard throws, the Vikings are going to go nowhere. They are simply wasting the prime of AP's career by being unable to move defenders out of the box. We can blame the O-line all day long for being unable to open up holes for AP, but they are facing 9-10 men in the box on every play. You can't continue to run the ball against teams like that. NFL defensive coordinators have a full season of tape with AP running at his best and Christian Ponder behind center. There is a reason why AP is running into a brick wall and defenses are not concerned about Ponder beating them with his arm. At this point, it is a very simple life as a defensive coordinator going against the Vikings - if you stop AP, you stop the Vikings.

How about we take games played into account? Ponder didn't play a full season his rookie year, but was still sacked 32 times (I think he started 10). So you also have to take that into account for the sack totals. If he plays in those other 6 games, who knows what his sack total would have been, but just averaging it out for times sacked per game, it would have been 3.5 per game. And if that rate would have continued, he would have been sacked am additional 21 times which would have raised his rookie season total to 53, which would have put him only 4 sacks behind Rodgers for most times sacked in the last 2 seasons. So I'd say that Ponder has been consistently in the top 3 for most pressured QBs in the league since 2011.

Also, the reason he doesn't have 15+ yard passes is because, like I mentioned before, Musgrave is WAY TO CONSERVATIVE. He only runs plays that have routes of 3-7 yards. He never lets Ponder unleash it and throw down field. Play calling has limited his ability. And I'm sure he doesn't get to throw down field in practice either because Musgrave doesn't run those plays in games.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:01 PM   #130
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[circular argument]One thing you'll never be able to do is convince or make a compelling argument to a supercollector or die-hard that their QB isn't who they thought he was or will ever be, regardless of any facts or stats presented. Let this thread die and let Ponder continue doing what he does (which, for all intensive purposes, is being well below average). [/circularargument]
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:21 PM   #131
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[circular argument]One thing you'll never be able to do is convince or make a compelling argument to a supercollector or die-hard that their QB isn't who they thought he was or will ever be, regardless of any facts or stats presented. Let this thread die and let Ponder continue doing what he does (which, for all intensive purposes, is being well below average). [/circularargument]
It'll die as soon as you let it die. Those stats aren't compelling. Again, as I previously stated they are only a glimpse and not the whole picture. The don't take into account anything else besides sacks.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:28 PM   #132
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It'll die as soon as you let it die. Those stats aren't compelling. Again, as I previously stated they are only a glimpse and not the whole picture. The don't take into account anything else besides sacks.
It'll die when he won't be a viking...so it's either in a few weeks or the offseason whichever comes first because the front office won't resign him...if they do put a tombstone on APs career or his time in Minnesota...the end. RIP Ponders chance in Minnesota
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:38 PM   #133
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It'll die when he won't be a viking...so it's either in a few weeks or the offseason whichever comes first because the front office won't resign him...if they do put a tombstone on APs career or his time in Minnesota...the end. RIP Ponders chance in Minnesota
Ok thanks, Mr. Spielman, for your insight.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:16 PM   #134
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ever hear of an audible before?
Up to 58 retractions now on ebay I see. Stay classy.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:20 PM   #135
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Up to 58 retractions now on ebay I see. Stay classy.
Wow! Mr. Spielman should be able to afford it!
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:59 PM   #136
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How about we take games played into account? Ponder didn't play a full season his rookie year, but was still sacked 32 times (I think he started 10). So you also have to take that into account for the sack totals. If he plays in those other 6 games, who knows what his sack total would have been, but just averaging it out for times sacked per game, it would have been 3.5 per game. And if that rate would have continued, he would have been sacked am additional 21 times which would have raised his rookie season total to 53, which would have put him only 4 sacks behind Rodgers for most times sacked in the last 2 seasons. So I'd say that Ponder has been consistently in the top 3 for most pressured QBs in the league since 2011.

Also, the reason he doesn't have 15+ yard passes is because, like I mentioned before, Musgrave is WAY TO CONSERVATIVE. He only runs plays that have routes of 3-7 yards. He never lets Ponder unleash it and throw down field. Play calling has limited his ability. And I'm sure he doesn't get to throw down field in practice either because Musgrave doesn't run those plays in games.
I have updated the number of games played with each QB's sack total. Ponder certainly moves up the list, but several other QB's make a jump as well. I cut anyone under 70 sacks just to clean the list up a bit.

Keep in mind that my numbers on time in the pocket were exclusive to 2012. The same goes for sack percentage. What that means is per pass attempt, Ponder had a lower sacked per attempt percentage than 19 other QB's. 19 other QB's in 2012 were sacked at a higher clip per drop back. The average yards per attempt numbers for 2011 and 2012 are also spot on and reflect total throws, not games played. The 2012 breakdown of 8 good/8 poor is also completely valid, but entirely missed by your response.


Aaron Rodgers - 87 (31 games) - 89.92 stretched to 32 games
Sam Bradford - 71 (26 games) - 87.36 stretched to 32 games
Ben Roethlisberger - 70 (28 games) - 80 stretched to 32 games
Philip Rivers - 79 (32 games)
Jay Cutler - 61 (25 games) - 78.08 stretched to 32 games
Christian Ponder - 62 (26 games) - 76.16 stretched to 32 games
Mark Sanchez - 73 (31 games) - 75.33 stretched to 32 games
Tony Romo - 72 (32 games)
Cam Newton - 71 (32 games)
Michael Vick - 51 (23 games) - 70.72 stretched to 32 games
Andy Dalton - 70 (32 games)

On a side note, the Vikings worked on deep balls all throughout the summer. See any of the following articles. They gave up on the idea for some reason, I'm not sure what it could be though.

Christian Ponder, Vikings ready to go deep in 2013

Christian Ponder undeterred by periodic struggles this offseason - Minnesota Vikings news | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings

Christian Ponder and Matt Cassel Are ?Struggling? In Camp - The Viking Age - A Minnesota Vikings Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and more.

Deep trouble: Numbers say Ponder can't throw it deep - Rick Kupchella's - BringMeTheNews.com
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:21 PM   #137
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I have updated the number of games played with each QB's sack total. Ponder certainly moves up the list, but several other QB's make a jump as well. I cut anyone under 70 sacks just to clean the list up a bit.

Keep in mind that my numbers on time in the pocket were exclusive to 2012. The same goes for sack percentage. What that means is per pass attempt, Ponder had a lower sacked per attempt percentage than 19 other QB's. 19 other QB's in 2012 were sacked at a higher clip per drop back. The average yards per attempt numbers for 2011 and 2012 are also spot on and reflect total throws, not games played. The 2012 breakdown of 8 good/8 poor is also completely valid, but entirely missed by your response.


Aaron Rodgers - 87 (31 games) - 89.92 stretched to 32 games
Sam Bradford - 71 (26 games) - 87.36 stretched to 32 games
Ben Roethlisberger - 70 (28 games) - 80 stretched to 32 games
Philip Rivers - 79 (32 games)
Jay Cutler - 61 (25 games) - 78.08 stretched to 32 games
Christian Ponder - 62 (26 games) - 76.16 stretched to 32 games
Mark Sanchez - 73 (31 games) - 75.33 stretched to 32 games
Tony Romo - 72 (32 games)
Cam Newton - 71 (32 games)
Michael Vick - 51 (23 games) - 70.72 stretched to 32 games
Andy Dalton - 70 (32 games)

On a side note, the Vikings worked on deep balls all throughout the summer. See any of the following articles. They gave up on the idea for some reason, I'm not sure what it could be though.

Christian Ponder, Vikings ready to go deep in 2013

Christian Ponder undeterred by periodic struggles this offseason - Minnesota Vikings news | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings

Christian Ponder and Matt Cassel Are ?Struggling? In Camp - The Viking Age - A Minnesota Vikings Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and more.

Deep trouble: Numbers say Ponder can't throw it deep - Rick Kupchella's - BringMeTheNews.com
#@#@#@#@ me, right? I feel bad for Rodgers behind that line... damn it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:09 PM   #138
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#@#@#@#@ me, right? I feel bad for Rodgers behind that line... damn it.
It really is amazing what he can do with such a crappy line. Imagine if he had a guy like AP in the backfield...
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:37 PM   #139
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It really is amazing what he can do with such a crappy line. Imagine if he had a guy like AP in the backfield...
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Old 09-28-2013, 04:36 PM   #140
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You need to understand Ponder is more mobile than many QBs, therefore he may have escaped more sacks than some of these others. This list doesn't take that into account and again only shows a glimpse.

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I have updated the number of games played with each QB's sack total. Ponder certainly moves up the list, but several other QB's make a jump as well. I cut anyone under 70 sacks just to clean the list up a bit.

Keep in mind that my numbers on time in the pocket were exclusive to 2012. The same goes for sack percentage. What that means is per pass attempt, Ponder had a lower sacked per attempt percentage than 19 other QB's. 19 other QB's in 2012 were sacked at a higher clip per drop back. The average yards per attempt numbers for 2011 and 2012 are also spot on and reflect total throws, not games played. The 2012 breakdown of 8 good/8 poor is also completely valid, but entirely missed by your response.


Aaron Rodgers - 87 (31 games) - 89.92 stretched to 32 games
Sam Bradford - 71 (26 games) - 87.36 stretched to 32 games
Ben Roethlisberger - 70 (28 games) - 80 stretched to 32 games
Philip Rivers - 79 (32 games)
Jay Cutler - 61 (25 games) - 78.08 stretched to 32 games
Christian Ponder - 62 (26 games) - 76.16 stretched to 32 games
Mark Sanchez - 73 (31 games) - 75.33 stretched to 32 games
Tony Romo - 72 (32 games)
Cam Newton - 71 (32 games)
Michael Vick - 51 (23 games) - 70.72 stretched to 32 games
Andy Dalton - 70 (32 games)

On a side note, the Vikings worked on deep balls all throughout the summer. See any of the following articles. They gave up on the idea for some reason, I'm not sure what it could be though.

Christian Ponder, Vikings ready to go deep in 2013

Christian Ponder undeterred by periodic struggles this offseason - Minnesota Vikings news | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings

Christian Ponder and Matt Cassel Are ?Struggling? In Camp - The Viking Age - A Minnesota Vikings Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and more.

Deep trouble: Numbers say Ponder can't throw it deep - Rick Kupchella's - BringMeTheNews.com
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Old 09-28-2013, 04:39 PM   #141
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I think that I am the only believer in Christian Ponder on these boards. I'm not going to say he is going to put up 300+ yards every game, but I think that he can be the Alex Smith type of quarterback.

For the sake of making things easy, I'll just go by games played (1st 3 seasons)

Alex Smith-1st overall in 2005
32 games played
435-800 (54%)
4,679 yards
19 TD's
31 INT's
27 fumbles
Sacked 78 times
Record as starter 11-19
0 playoff appearance

Christian Ponder-12th overall in 2011
30 games played
517-874 (59%)
5,479 yards
33 TD's
30 INT's
15 fumbles
Sacked 72 times
Record as starter
Record as starter 12-17
1 playoff appearance

The stats are pretty similar through 30-32 games. Ponder does have a better completion percentage, more yards, and more TD's along with 1 less INT.

Here is why I STILL think Ponder can succeed. Everyone is being so tough on Ponder this season and blaming him for all 3 losses. I will give you the week 1 loss being on Ponder, but these past 2 weeks are not on him at all.

So far in 2013, Ponder has been sacked 10 times. Thats already 1/3rd of what he was sacked last season. The offensive line has given him absolutely no time to make reads and see where he should be going. He is running for his life more then he is standing in the pocket. Ponder wouldn't be receiving all of the criticism if the Vikings defense was able to hold up on defense the past 2 weeks on the opposing teams final drives. Ponder single handedly kept us in the game against the Browns using his legs. If the Vikings are sitting at 2-1 right now, all of the criticism is going on the offensive line for not blocking and the receivers for letting the ball bounce off their hands.

In 2012, Ponder led the Vikings to a 24-13 win over Alex Smith (his comparison) and outperformed him in that game. Ponder also beat Aaron Rodgers with an impressive game winning drive in a key game that got the Vikings into the postseason. Ponder threw 1 or less INT's in 12 games last season. Without Ponder, the Vikings wouldn't have made the playoffs. That showed when Webb played in the playoffs and couldn't handle it. Many Vikings fans felt that if Ponder would have played, we would have won that first playoff game.

You guys can sticky this, quote this, or do whatever you'd like to do with this. But people wanted Alex Smith out of San Fran for many years and now I bet they wish they could get him back. Smith may not have lived up to the 400+, 4 TD games that you expect out of a 1st overall pick, but what Smith does do is win games. And the reason why he wins games is because Harbaugh GAVE HIM A CHANCE and saw his potential! While it may take a little longer then Viking fans would hope, Ponder will mature into an NFL quarterback. Especially if the line can give him some time back there. Its still an early season, we are only 3 games in. I don't think its time to give up on Ponder. You won't see Cassel go in there and do any better. He has shown that he struggles immensely.

Ponder is going to go out there this Sunday (if his rib injury doesn't hold him out) against the Steelers and show all of the NFL why he is a starting quarterback and he will come out with the W going into the bye week. Ponder is the next coming of Alex Smith and the comparison shows it. Book it.

SKOL!
Can show you countless QB's that had similar or better stats than Alex in his first 30-32 that wound up to have horrible careers. Worst argument ever.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:36 PM   #142
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Can show you countless QB's that had similar or better stats than Alex in his first 30-32 that wound up to have horrible careers. Worst argument ever.
Enlighten me please

I'm not just going off stats, I am also using personnel which are poor offensive line, soft defense, good HB (Great HB in MN's case), poor coaching (especially with the OC), so please show me QB's that had ALL of those problems (aside from HB, thats a blessing) and then we can go from there
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:43 PM   #143
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Wow! Mr. Spielman should be able to afford it!
Fyi, the quickest way to make him disapear from a thread is to bring up his shadyness. Goes silent every time.
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Old 09-29-2013, 02:26 PM   #144
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I believe in Cassell
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Old 09-29-2013, 02:40 PM   #145
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I believe in Cassell
Sam was awesome.
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Old 09-29-2013, 02:57 PM   #146
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I believe in Cassell
59 retractions and counting.....atta boy
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:12 PM   #147
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Move Ponder to waterboy, we have a QB that can throw a deep ball and take a little pressure off AP. At a boy Cassels.
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:12 PM   #148
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Crickets........
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:16 PM   #149
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hey nice TD pass Cassel. good way to silence the critics!
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:27 PM   #150
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Cassel's stats have implied more then what has actually happened. He has had 4 balls that should have been picks slip right out of the defenders hands and his stats got inflated from a 3 yard dump pass that Jennings made a great play on and took 70 yards.

I'm not saying he hasn't done some good things, because he has and he has made some nice passes, but personally I don't think he has done anything Ponder hasn't done before. Cassel is actually getting some protection back there which Ponder hasn't seen much of the entire season and that always helps a QB too.

With that said, I think Ponder will have his starting job back. Maybe Cassel will get the start against Carolina, but his true colors will show soon and that's the 6 TD's and 12 INT's he had last season. There is a reason Cassel was replaced by Brady Quinn and there is a reason why Cassel is 2nd on the depth chart at QB!
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