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View Poll Results: Who wins the AL MVP?
Mookie Betts 130 48.51%
Francisco Lindor 4 1.49%
JD Martinez 52 19.40%
Jose Ramirez 33 12.31%
Mike Trout 36 13.43%
Other 13 4.85%
Voters: 268. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-15-2018, 08:52 PM   #76
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13 of the previous 99 AL Award winners have been on the field less than what Martinez has already performed. Many more have performed in less games. Some of those players performed on the field such as Jeff Burroughs, Reggie Jackson, Jose Canseco, Mo Vaughn.

Of the previous 6 winners, the MVP had the higher sOPS+ in High Leverage opportunities. Ramirez, Lindor are not close while Trout who in previous MVP seasons was great but not this season. Betts is almost even but the Xtreme high leverage, where the team is behind or tied in critical opportunities is by far JD. I've never researched a player who had a sOPS+ in the 4 Clutch hitting categories of 200+, JD has just that. That is truly Amazing!
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:03 PM   #77
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Absolutely correct here. And even with Martinez sitting in the dugout 95% of the time as good of a year as he is having he still is not a better hitter then Betts or Ramirez. Add in the elite defense and what they do on the basepath and it's kind of silly to put Martinez is the same sentence as Ramirez/Betts. Ramirez is actually second in the entire MLB only behind Billy Hamilton in value and efficiency via baserunning. I don't know where Betts ranks off hand but I know he provides a plus value as well. I just have a really hard time taking anyone serious that would say anyone other then Betts or Ramirez is the MVP. I guess maybe you could argue for Trout but that is even a stretch. After looking at the numbers there's no way anyone can sell me on another option then those two and am really confused why Martinez has the second most votes in the poll. Very odd to me to say the least.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:15 PM   #78
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Wait do whaaat??? Ramirez is exactly 1 home run behind Martinez. Ramirez adds elite defense and elite base running to his game something Martinez can't say. Ramirez has him beat by like 2.5 WAR on Baseball Reference and Fan Graphs. Martinez is having a great season but Ramirez is easily a level above him and it's not really close. The one extra home run means that much more or what?? I'm so beyond confused here. If anyone actually wants to look at the numbers seriously it is a flip of the coin between Betts and Ramirez for MVP. Trout and Lindor are behind them and then Martinez rounds out the top 5.

Eric, still a quarter of the season to go, look what happened to Gregorious! Just a stat to chew on. In High Leverage at bats, JRam 68 At Bats 25 RBI's, JD 69 At Bats 40 RBI's. 15 more RBI's in High Leverage opportunities in just 1 more at bat. JD has been crushing it when the moment is at its apex!
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:24 PM   #79
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Theres no way JD Martinez isn't the favorite right now for MVP

Someone check the odds @ the Westgate. I don't and can't get the APP
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:25 PM   #80
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Eric, still a quarter of the season to go, look what happened to Gregorious! Just a stat to chew on. In High Leverage at bats, JRam 68 At Bats 25 RBI's, JD 69 At Bats 40 RBI's. 15 more RBI's in High Leverage opportunities in just 1 more at bat. JD has been crushing it when the moment is at its apex!
Again I'm not saying Martinez isn't having anything but a phenomenal year but 15 RBI doesn't close the gap on a 2.5+ WAR lead to me...or the elite defense...or the top tier base running...I just can't buy into Martinez's season being in the same breath as Betts or Ramirez's. At this point anyone who sees Martinez as equal to or better then Betts or Ramirez we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think I could be convinced that the sky is not blue, water is not wet and the Earth is flat before somebody could sell me on Martinez > Ramirez/Betts.

To your point on Gregorious I see what you're getting at but Didi is nowhere near the talent level of Ramirez or Betts. They could go through a prolong slump the rest of the year and still finish with 10+ WAR. I mean Ramirez could very well put together a 50 HR/40 SB season. I simply can't wrap my mind around the MVP not being Ramirez or Betts.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:29 PM   #81
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Theres no way JD Martinez isn't the favorite right now for MVP

Someone check the odds @ the Westgate. I don't and can't get the APP
So we are clear: 2 guys who are on pace to put together two of the top 10 greatest seasons in MLB history - up there with the greatest seasons from the likes of Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, ect. aren't the favorites but a DH who isn't even in the top 10 in WAR for this season is the favorite? Am I reading this correctly? Should Brandon McCarthy also win the Cy Young over Scherzer/DeGrom?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:31 PM   #82
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So we are clear: 2 guys who are on pace to put together two of the top 10 greatest seasons in MLB history - up there with the greatest seasons from the likes of Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, ect. aren't the favorites but a DH who isn't even in the top 10 in WAR for this season is the favorite? Am I reading this correctly? Should Brandon McCarthy also win the Cy Young over Scherzer/DeGrom?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:39 PM   #83
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Again I'm not saying Martinez isn't having anything but a phenomenal year but 15 RBI doesn't close the gap on a 2.5+ WAR lead to me...or the elite defense...or the top tier base running...I just can't buy into Martinez's season being in the same breath as Betts or Ramirez's. At this point anyone who sees Martinez as equal to or better then Betts or Ramirez we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think I could be convinced that the sky is not blue, water is not wet and the Earth is flat before somebody could sell me on Martinez > Ramirez/Betts.

To your point on Gregorious I see what you're getting at but Didi is nowhere near the talent level of Ramirez or Betts. They could go through a prolong slump the rest of the year and still finish with 10+ WAR. I mean Ramirez could very well put together a 50 HR/40 SB season. I simply can't wrap my mind around the MVP not being Ramirez or Betts.

About 15 more High leverage RBI's compared to a 2.5 WAR, it absolutely crushes 2.5 WAR. That is most likely equal to 7 more victories.

You may want to check RE24 and a few more stats that JD is cranking out his Value!

As far as not voting a DH as a MVP, when the NFL can award a Kicker a MVP for hitting 20/21 FG and many came as game winners, then baseball is next. 13 of 99 MVP awards went to players with a quarter the effort and 3/4ths the rest, many more with less games if JD remains healthy with multiple dead weights in the field. It will happen because the game has evolved into protecting the invested players.

Last edited by Stifle; 08-15-2018 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:46 PM   #84
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I think at this point for my own sanity I need to check out of this thread
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:51 PM   #85
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About 15 more High leverage RBI's compared to a 2.5 WAR, it absolutely crushes 2.5 WAR. That is most likely equal to 7 more victories.

You may want to check RE24 and a few more stats that JD is cranking out his Value!

As far as not voting a DH as a MVP, when the NFL can award a Kicker a MVP for hitting 20/21 FG and many came as game winners, then baseball is next. 13 of 99 MVP awards went to players with a quarter the effort and 3/4ths the rest, many more with less games if JD remains healthy with multiple dead weights in the field. It will happen because the game has evolved into protecting the invested players.
You really are going full bore on the high leverage RBIs lol. Earth to Stifle, no one gives a damn.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:56 PM   #86
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About 15 more High leverage RBI's compared to a 2.5 WAR, it absolutely crushes 2.5 WAR. That is most likely equal to 7 more victories.
I absolutely love to see the nonsense that leads to this statistical calculation.

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You may want to check RE24 and a few more stats that JD is cranking out his Value!
Are we basing the entire JD Martinez MVP campaign on situational hitting? That's...not an argument that's going to garner a lot of votes.

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As far as not voting a DH as a MVP, when the NFL can award a Kicker a MVP for hitting 20/21 FG and many came as game winners, then baseball is next.
Citing a different sport from thirty-six years ago compared to the analytically pioneering sport is not a great argument.

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13 of 99 MVP awards went to players with a quarter the effort and 3/4ths the rest, many more with less games if JD remains healthy with multiple dead weights in the field. It will happen because the game has evolved into protecting the invested players.
I would like to see a source on those thirteen players. From a brief check of the modern era winners, I can't find anyone with even close to the 385 innings Martinez has in the field, unless we're counting pitchers (but that's a very shoddy comparison). Even Baylor - the only MVP tagged as even a partial DH - had 829 innings played defensively.

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I think at this point for my own sanity I need to check out of this thread
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:57 PM   #87
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You really are going full bore on the high leverage RBIs lol. Earth to Stifle, no one gives a damn.
A MVP writer from last season chose Altuve just for being the better clutch hitter and he was creating a poll between his friends who had votes. The last 6 MVP winners all had a higher High Leverage sOPS+ therefore the odds in that are pretty stacked. Yes, I believe there is weight to this stat as well as (RE24), (WPA) & (REW) !
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:04 PM   #88
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You really are going full bore on the high leverage RBIs lol. Earth to Stifle, no one gives a damn.
I'm glad to see other people who understand baseball come in and contribute to this thread...I was seriously starting to feel like I was in the Twighlight Zone in here before a few minutes ago. The sad thing is if you look at the poll results 22% of the people that voted think a 7 WAR DH > 11 WAR OF/3B. How does this happen? It's not even like we can say it is Red Sox homers screwing the poll results up because Mookie would get those votes. It literally makes no sense to me.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:08 PM   #89
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So the new argument now is something that happened in the NFL 40 years ago is a good reason to give the MVP award to a guy in the MLB who isn't in the top 10 in players this season? Is that where we are at?

Welcome to Blowout Forums guys: Mike Trout is boring and a 7 WAR DH > 11 WAR 3B/OF
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:55 PM   #90
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I'm glad to see other people who understand baseball come in and contribute to this thread...I was seriously starting to feel like I was in the Twighlight Zone in here before a few minutes ago. The sad thing is if you look at the poll results 22% of the people that voted think a 7 WAR DH > 11 WAR OF/3B. How does this happen? It's not even like we can say it is Red Sox homers screwing the poll results up because Mookie would get those votes. It literally makes no sense to me.
Eric, writer after writer were utilizing clutch stats in last seasons MVP debate. How does the 3rd place WAR finisher Crush what was suppose to be a Judge victory? let us know how a 3rd place WAR finisher makes sense winning a MVP and I will show you how a outfielder who is being kept healthy as a DH can win as well.

Did you check (RE24), (WPA) & (REW) ?

Every year a pitcher (13 times) wins the MVP, fans complain because they are on the field a quarter of the time, but JD has taken the field and appeared in a much higher percentage than a pitcher. Those are facts and that is what I'm utilizing in this debate. It's not a argument because each player we have mentioned will be roughly a top 5 player. We are not arguing Matt Davidson as MVP, this is about utilizing aspects of performance that create value / winning over the next MVP candidate.

Eric, keep digging for facts because I enjoy debate. This isn't life or death its MVP. The sun will rise if our opinions differ. It's all good.

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Old 08-16-2018, 12:12 AM   #91
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Altuve last year was 7.6 to Judge's 8.2 a difference of 0.6

Right now Betts and Ramirez are both at 8 WAR with 40 games to go; Martinez is at 5.6. Thats a 2.5 win difference. At seasons end it projects to be a 3.5+ difference. That is a gap and not the half win difference between Altuve and Judge. I'll agree with you the sun will indeed rise tomorrow and I like to debate baseball as well - love it in fact - but I don't see a debate here. If someone wanted to debate Betts vs. Ramirez that is fair game and would be an interesting debate. Martinez doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as these two and it's pretty funny 22% of the vote is for him. I can't figure it out.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:39 AM   #92
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Wait do whaaat??? Ramirez is exactly 1 home run behind Martinez. Ramirez adds elite defense and elite base running to his game something Martinez can't say. Ramirez has him beat by like 2.5 WAR on Baseball Reference and Fan Graphs. Martinez is having a great season but Ramirez is easily a level above him and it's not really close. The one extra home run means that much more or what?? I'm so beyond confused here. If anyone actually wants to look at the numbers seriously it is a flip of the coin between Betts and Ramirez for MVP. Trout and Lindor are behind them and then Martinez rounds out the top 5.
When you challenge for the Triple Crown it is a very big deal. When your team is on pace to win 110 games it’s a big deal. JD IS the favorite in the odds and the polls, articles...everything.

So while JRAM has the War, defense, stolen bases, I get all that...but I don’t vote.

For him to take the spotlight away from a triple crown contender, he must do something like 50 HR/30 SB. Otherwise JD is going to win flirting with the Triple crown on a 110 win team. It is what it is.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:28 AM   #93
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MVP (offense/defense): Betts / JRam

AL Hank Aaron award (best hitter): JD Martinez

There is no way in the world that a DH or pitcher is more valuable than an everyday stud hitter/defender. Until possibly the playoffs. Possibly.
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:54 AM   #94
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DH's and best years in vote vs DH/OF JD:

2016 Ortiz 5 innings 0 Errors
2014 V Mart 301.1 innings 5 Errors
1995 Edgar M 56. Innings. 2 Errors

2018 JD Martinez 393 innings 0 Errors a quarter of the season to go.

We could add more lesser DH's with good MVP seasons but some players are left off the field to protect the team while JD is left off the field to protect Boston's investment.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:17 AM   #95
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you guys keep ripping on Stifle for bringing up all the clutch stuff...

spoiler alert...

its not the damn WAR award?? it doesnt just go to the guy with the highest WAR...geez guys...

Miggy won in '12 when Trout had like 3+ more war....why?? team success...oh and something called a triple crown...is miggy good on the bases?? is miggy a sweet defensive 1B??

WAR is helpful to a degree...but for you CLEARLY biased Indians fans to just keep repeating how you cannot even fathom a world in where JD Martinez would get votes over Ramirez let alone win the award is ridiculous

is he a majority DH?? yep sure is...not full time but mostly

is he hitting .330+...yep
is he leading the league in HR...yep
is he leading the league in RBI...yep
is he on pace for a very good 7WAR+ himself...yep
is he leading the league in XBH...yep
is he leading the league in TB...yep
he is .005 from leading in SLG
his OBP is up over .400 now
his OPS is 1.065
he is leading Ramirez specifically in: runs, hits, doubles, homers, rbi, avg, slg, ops

he is the #3/4 hitter on the best team in the league that might win 110+ games and the guy who might be the best player in the league(his teammate Betts has like previously stated, missed about 25 games now)...meaning that when it comes down to it the whole splitting vote thing might not actually matter....some voters may look at it and be like "well yea Mookie overall is better but he missed 30 games and JD didnt and he kept it going and kept producing in those extra 30 games"

his old stupid traditional stats still matter...again it is not an award for WAR...they dont just line up the number for 1 stat and vote...

"how can a 7WAR DH beat an 10.5-11WAR 3b??????"

um he can beat him by being the clean up hitter on a 110win team and leading the league in HR/RBI while hitting .330+ and all of that does indeed include a ton of clutch stuff...late in games the guy thrives...it really shouldnt be that hard to wrap your head around...

you dont have to like it...but to say you cant even imagine a world where he would win...well then that is on you to be honest...

have i mentioned that they dont just give the MVP to the guys with the highest war??
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:22 AM   #96
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Altuve last year was 7.6 to Judge's 8.2 a difference of 0.6

Right now Betts and Ramirez are both at 8 WAR with 40 games to go; Martinez is at 5.6. Thats a 2.5 win difference. At seasons end it projects to be a 3.5+ difference. That is a gap and not the half win difference between Altuve and Judge. I'll agree with you the sun will indeed rise tomorrow and I like to debate baseball as well - love it in fact - but I don't see a debate here. If someone wanted to debate Betts vs. Ramirez that is fair game and would be an interesting debate. Martinez doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as these two and it's pretty funny 22% of the vote is for him. I can't figure it out.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:12 AM   #97
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you guys keep ripping on Stifle for bringing up all the clutch stuff...

spoiler alert...

its not the damn WAR award?? it doesnt just go to the guy with the highest WAR...geez guys...

Miggy won in '12 when Trout had like 3+ more war....why?? team success...oh and something called a triple crown...is miggy good on the bases?? is miggy a sweet defensive 1B??

WAR is helpful to a degree...but for you CLEARLY biased Indians fans to just keep repeating how you cannot even fathom a world in where JD Martinez would get votes over Ramirez let alone win the award is ridiculous

is he a majority DH?? yep sure is...not full time but mostly

is he hitting .330+...yep
is he leading the league in HR...yep
is he leading the league in RBI...yep
is he on pace for a very good 7WAR+ himself...yep
is he leading the league in XBH...yep
is he leading the league in TB...yep
he is .005 from leading in SLG
his OBP is up over .400 now
his OPS is 1.065
he is leading Ramirez specifically in: runs, hits, doubles, homers, rbi, avg, slg, ops

he is the #3/4 hitter on the best team in the league that might win 110+ games and the guy who might be the best player in the league(his teammate Betts has like previously stated, missed about 25 games now)...meaning that when it comes down to it the whole splitting vote thing might not actually matter....some voters may look at it and be like "well yea Mookie overall is better but he missed 30 games and JD didnt and he kept it going and kept producing in those extra 30 games"

his old stupid traditional stats still matter...again it is not an award for WAR...they dont just line up the number for 1 stat and vote...

"how can a 7WAR DH beat an 10.5-11WAR 3b??????"

um he can beat him by being the clean up hitter on a 110win team and leading the league in HR/RBI while hitting .330+ and all of that does indeed include a ton of clutch stuff...late in games the guy thrives...it really shouldnt be that hard to wrap your head around...

you dont have to like it...but to say you cant even imagine a world where he would win...well then that is on you to be honest...

have i mentioned that they dont just give the MVP to the guys with the highest war??
Cabrera shouldn't have won the MVP award that year, the Triple Crown doesn't value OBP, so I don't value it (and LOL at RBI)

Also, Miggy was a 3rd basemen when he was MVP, I'm sure a smart guy like you knew that though!

Also, it's the most valuable player award not MVPOTBT award (most valuable player on the best team,just if that went over your head)
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:16 AM   #98
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DH's and best years in vote vs DH/OF JD:

2016 Ortiz 5 innings 0 Errors
2014 V Mart 301.1 innings 5 Errors
1995 Edgar M 56. Innings. 2 Errors

2018 JD Martinez 393 innings 0 Errors a quarter of the season to go.

We could add more lesser DH's with good MVP seasons but some players are left off the field to protect the team while JD is left off the field to protect Boston's investment.
JD Martinez is left off the field because in 400 innings he has a -4 DRS.

Very solid narrative you pushed tho. Good effort
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:22 AM   #99
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Josh Donaldson
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:29 AM   #100
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Cabrera shouldn't have won the MVP award that year, the Triple Crown doesn't value OBP, so I don't value it (and LOL at RBI)

Also, Miggy was a 3rd basemen when he was MVP, I'm sure a smart guy like you knew that though!

Also, it's the most valuable player award not MVPOTBT award (most valuable player on the best team,just if that went over your head)
oh he shouldnt have won?? hmm...i must have missed that part on his BREF page...it shows MVP-1 in bold...when you click it for that year...it shows the voting totals where he won with 22/28 1st place votes...maybe the part with the

*he shouldnt have won* was way at the bottom of the page??

i mean you said he shouldnt have won...so clearly history is just wrong and shouldnt be used since you said so right??

and you can say all you damn well please how its not the "MVPOTBT" but if you are going to simply ignore the fact that team success plays a HUGE roll in the award...then you are just being delusional

again..its not the WAR award...if Trout gets to 10.0WAR and another player(in any year not this year) gets to 8.5+WAR...but the guy with 8.5 is on a team that wins its division...and LAA once again finishes like 4th...Trout wont win...i mean hardly ever will he win in that situation...and he shouldnt...1.5WAR doesnt mean enough to discount other great seasons of guys that are going to the playoffs...again...this isnt just my opinion...its just how it is...you dont have to like it...but you are in denial if you think its not the way it is

but hey what does anyone else know....Triple Crown?? hadnt been done in 45yrs..."i dont value it cuz LOL at RBIs and it doesnt count for OBP"..(like miggy sucked at OBP that year...it was .399 to .393)

ok cool...look at you...you are being cool and edgy by saying things like the triple crown means nothing...well apparently it does, since again...he won the MVP with 22 of the 28 available 1st place votes...crazy i know!
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